Some fire officials concerned about firefighters taking photos

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The Associated Press has an article about the increasing trend of firefighters taking photos while they are assigned to a fire, and in some cases sharing them on social media websites.

Below is an excerpt from the article:

…Fire officials, who have seen an uptick in such postings, warn that the act of focusing on a handheld screen can be deadly when crews are surrounded by danger.

“There have been incidents in the past where firefighters have captured the last moments literally of their lives,” said Dave Teter, deputy director chief of fire protection at the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

The problem is especially heightened in California as the parched state makes for an explosive fire landscape.

“Burning conditions and rates of spread and the energy release associated with these fires is really unprecedented,” said Teter.

Cal Fire has discussed the possibility of stripping crews of their cellphones, and the idea remains on the table. The agency says for now, however, it’s trying to avoid such a drastic measure…

What do you think? Is this a problem? Can a fire agency strip crews of their cell phones?

Typos, let us know HERE, and specify which article. Please read the commenting rules before you post a comment.

Author: Bill Gabbert

After working full time in wildland fire for 33 years, he continues to learn, and strives to be a Student of Fire.

35 thoughts on “Some fire officials concerned about firefighters taking photos”

  1. Last year I read where a whole Hot Shot crew got trapped and died just minutes after being dropped off at their location. No one ever knew exactly what happened. Now if I were one of that crew, couldn’t get out, couldn”t call for help, I would want someone to see and know what happened. If by taking a photo of my last minute on earth. I could let fire investigators see a glimpse of why I couldn”t escape, I say having a cell phone that works, that can take photos and withstand the heat is a very comforting device to have with me, especially if. not one soul survives to escape. It would be my testament to everyone, my legacy. I believe the investigators are not giving the firefighters ctedit for having brains enough to record a clear, factual happening to help resolve the investigation into their demise. This is how I see it. It might seem morbid but how else can you find the truth about something as horrific as being cut off from help. The cell phone is like a pocket friend, the last little comfort to take to a wildfire. I hope firemen get to keep them. It could help in so many ways.

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  2. @GrizRich:
    We are attempting at least three different conversations here. [grin]

    You raise several valid points, particularly whether Firefighter Juan (with a cellphone in his pocket who takes photos) might have some moral or ethical obligation to share those with you (if you are, say, the FBAN or the info officer on the fire). You are enjoying discussing the ethical/moral/responsible implications of photos that firefighters might capture while working on a fire. What I’ve been aiming at or discussing here is the LEGAL situation in which agency employees unjustifiably tell firefighters that the agency somehow owns those images.

    No, the agency does not.

    You’re talking about assumed moral or ethical “obligations” here, and I’m talking about federal and international law, which trumps agency wants and wishes.

    If you as on-site fire behavior expert (or I as info officer at the ICP) ask firefighters to fork over images they got today, that’s one thing. They can do that or not do that, it’s up to them. Maybe the firefighters “should” hand over their photos (as you say) in some sense of their “obligation” to the command&general staff on the fire, or the agency they work for, or the agency running the fire, or for the “general good of the community” in a learning environment. But legally, they don’t have to — and if they do, then the agency (or its personnel) has limited rights to the images, and the photographer still retains all other rights to said images.

    What I’ve been talking about, though, is when agency personnel try to tell firefighters (whether it’s hotshots or pilots) that the agency “OWNS” the photos. The agency does NOT own rights. The wishes and preferences of fire agency personnel just do not override copyright law, period.

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  3. 10 Standard Orders # 7: “Maintain prompt communications with your forces, your supervisor, and adjoining forces.” Communications should include photos, which might be texted as needed or provided at the end of shift or the end of an assignment. Order 7 doesn’t say “withhold communications until you consult your employment agreement.”

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  4. Another example of what I am discussing. “You are a crew boss on an actively moving fire with extreme fire behavior. You are sitting on a ridge top and can see a rapidly moving thunderstorm that appears is going to move over the fire and you realize that no one else on the fire can see what you see. You take a photo of the fire behavior……should you text that photo to Operations and Planning? You probably should. It might impact tactics and strategies. You don’t know for sure it will help but it is common sense that you do. Do you try and send 5 videos to Operations and Plans?…no of course not.

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  5. To give an example of what I am talking about. If you as a FF come on a stranded hiker on the fireline in need of immediate help do you assist them or ignore them because it isn’t in your job description or you haven’t signed a work agreement that specifies you will participate in “search and rescue”. The obligation is immediate although you could ignore the hiker and whatever happens happens.

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  6. I am not sure you are correct or not on who “owns” the photos that a firefighter (FF) takes on a fire. The real question is what becomes of those photos. The FF has an obligation to act as a member of a team…..the team being their crew and the overall team or agency in charge of the fire. Relevant photos need to be passed on in a timely manner to those that may need those photos. Do you HAVE to do that?…. No.

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  7. Cell phones are a vital tool on wildland fires and their use needs to be encouraged. Trying to demand that folks turn over photos is counterproductive and won’t work. Trying to limit what folks put in social media is just about impossible and most of that doesn’t really matter, although some photos should never be posted in certain cases.

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  8. Have firefighters and overhead fulfilled this obligation in the past? My experience is no. As an FBAN I usually ask fire crews to provide me representative photos of fire behavior on their Divisions……..99 % of the time I get…nothing. There are no protocols, standards, expectations, requirements or training of fire personal on what their obligations are…..so we in the fire world, get what we get as far as photos are concerned.

    So we in the fire world will continue with our same behavior, while the numbers of photo’s and video’s proliferate….most of which only to be shared in peoples homes and on Facebook…..the great majority of which will never be used as intelligence for ongoing operations and probably lost forever for historical purposes.

    This issue needs addressing.

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  9. The real question isn’t about copyright, laws and job descriptions….this is about obligations of fire personnel. Generally it is my opinion that if you take pictures on government time with a government camera the government has rights to those pictures. The real question is what should you do with the pictures you take in the field, and what obligation do you have to your agency or fire team you are working for? Obviously the fire team or home agency doesn’t want every photo every person on the scene takes but they do need and desire some of those pictures. And who needs those photos? The PIO, the Planning Section (DOC, FBAN), the hosting agency to name a few.

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    1. @GrizRich:
      > The real question isn’t about copyright, laws and job descriptions

      Well, GrizRich, that might not be YOUR real question, but when agency personnel are telling firefighters that the agency “owns” the firefighters’ photos, then that is indeed the real question. What you’re arguing below is a different question.

      > it is my opinion that if you take pictures on government time with a government camera

      If the agency provides you with a government camera and (thereby) asks for photos (which I’ve never seen nor heard of, by the way), then yes indeed they probably do own rights to those images. I’d assume they also ask you to sign something regarding liability for and ownership of the camera (and the images) and their retrieval and possession of both.

      Have you actually had agency employees provide you with a camera on a fire and ask you to take photos??

      As noted above, though, legally, unless a person signs something to the contrary, the photographer owns the rights to the images.

      > and what obligation do you have to your agency or fire team you are working for?

      Depends on what you signed beyond your regular employment, whether that’s FT permanent, temp employee, AD hire, or contract hire. If you sign something that grants the agency rights to your images, then they have rights to your images. If you did not sign something like that, then the default is federal (actually international) copyright law: he who makes the images owns the rights to the images.

      AND … if the FBAN asks me to provide photos, I may or may not do that, but if it’s my camera and I didn’t sign something granting rights to the FBAN individually or to the agency in general, I still own all rights to the photos I shoot.

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  10. Rangerjake72 said:
    “… and the agency reserves the right to reuse any pictures … ”

    Again, ONLY IF YOU SIGN SOMETHING THAT GRANTS THE AGENCY RIGHTS TO YOUR PHOTOS. Their “policy” or preferences or requests do not override federal (international) copyright law. You own your photos, period, unless you’ve agreed in writing otherwise.

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  11. Didn’t I read that one of the 2001 Thirtymile Fire rookies that died was taking “selfies” just before the fatal event?
    And on South Canyon, several last minute photos were telling, but in recent years, the SJ said that she didn’t even have time to put her camera in her PG bag?
    Situational awareness ……!

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  12. Florida already has a policy on it, so long as taking pictures doesn’t compromise safety, or the task at hand : suppressing the wildfire, judicious use is ok, but posting to social media is recommended to wait after the job is done, and the agency reserves the right to reuse any pictures, especially if the feature agency equipment or the emblem. it’s common sense here

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  13. Firefighting is indeed a grown up job. And nothing screams “grown up” like being glued to one’s phone all the time.

    For me it comes down to leadership on the line. I have worked for people who said no phones while working, and the meant it, we knew they meant it.

    Break time? Sure take a picture. But dont start whining later that your tools are dull.

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  14. Cell phones can be useful tools as well as potential lifelines.
    An agency that chops a piece of “C” from LCES could be risking a large liability exposure. But maybe some agencies don’t want too much info to get out about things that have nothing to do with patient confidentiality or distractions to fire fighters.

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  15. As the de facto PIO of my small volunteer department, I certainly do take photos when the situation permits — when I am able to safely take a break from my primary duties.

    Some end up on Facebook, etc., because people in the community enjoy seeing their family members (“That’s my dad!”) and neighbors at work on an incident.

    Some of my photos are furnished to local media, “Courtesy of the XXX Volunteer Fire Department,” both for their news value and to show our community that we were out there on the incident.

    Having been a newspaper reporter/photograper in the past, I think I know where the barriers of taste and legality lie. I would never show the face of someone being transported by the EMTS, for example.

    Mainly it’s about recognition for the volunteers and building community support for our and neighboring volunteer departments.

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  16. The only time I take pictures is when there’s a lull, or I have 30 seconds of nothing to to.

    My agency has training for when we can use cameras, what we should and should not take pictures of, what to think about when posting on social media, etc. It basically boils down to “don’t post pictures of sketchy things online, don’t take pictures of sensitive things at all, just use your common sense and don’t do stupid stuff.”

    But, I see the whole “take cell phones away form crews while working” thing as extremely drastic. Good luck forcing people to give up their phones.

    Cell phones are very useful, and we have used cell photos to document fire investigations.

    I can see the reasoning behind them wanting to remove cell phones, since they can be a huge distraction. But I don’t think taking the phones of grown adults is a good idea at all. At best, you’re pissing off your entire crew. At worst, you could face a safety issue, and not have a phone when you badly need one.

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  17. Barbour: “images taken while on the clock are the property of the AHJ, not them.”

    That is not correct. If your job description lists photography as part of your job duties, then images you get on the clock probably belong to your employer. If you are hired as a firefighter and your job description does not include photography, YOU OWN THE PHOTOS. Your employer may ask your permission to use the photos, but you still own all rights, unless you sign something that says you don’t.

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  18. Firefighter Safety is the most important reason. If a firefighter is not in a hazardous situation then perhaps photos are ok otherwise not only photos but anything that distracts them from their job must not be allowed. Have a photographer respond to incidents to handle that job.
    H

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  19. Cell phones can be used as another tool for the “C” in LCES.

    Cell coverage sometimes can be better than radio coverage and be a vital link for communication needs.

    Would be wrong to take a possible lifeline away from the field.

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  20. Banning cell phones, particularly based on an improper assertion of photo ownership, would be a typical, heavy-handed, bureaucratic over-reaction with some serious potential unintended negative consequences. True leadership would treat FFs as adults, educate them to the potential concerns, and deal with actual incidents at the appropriate level.

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  21. Cell phones and social media can be a colossal detriment to situational awareness.

    Taking pictures at lunch or on whatever break is okay I guess. Lots more stuff that can be done rather than take pictures and update status.

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  22. Don’t start treating firefighters like elementary school kids. They are responsible adults. They know when they are safe. If they are hunkering down and getting out of the way of the air show, I don’t see a problem with taking the opportunity to get some awesome photos/videos. I have been on lots of fires where PIOs have actually requested those items from the boots on the ground for PR purposes. And sadly, they may actually help with information in those rare, disturbing instances when things go wrong.

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  23. A recent fire I was on they had a stern, but very non-specific warning about posting stuff about the fire on social media – but at the same time, PIOs were asking for any photos or videos anyone could get on the line, and posted at least one of mine on Inciweb. I agree with Tactender, if bosses find their folks mis-directing their attention, or shooting when they should be digging, they need to address it, but a blanket ban on taking pics is inappropriate. What happens on a fire is a matter of public record. Everyone should be sensitive about not posting news of tragedy, anything that sounds like “official” information such as evacuations, pics of someone’s destroyed property they may not yet know about, that sort of thing. But pics of fire behavior, tanker drops, crews working hard, etc., is basic news. In 2015, friends, family, bosses and co-workers expect to hear how you’re going, and a quick tweet of “great day on the ABC fire, dug lots of line, saw some great fire behavior” to let everyone know in one message, and a pic of a crown fire hardly seems inappropriate.

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  24. Banning all cell/smart phone (what about regular cameras?) from incidents would be an ignorant and unenforceable policy.
    Rather, establish a reasonable SOG and leave enforcing it to Crew/ Engine/ Dozer Bosses.
    Make sure FF`s understand that images taken while on the clock are the property of the AHJ, not them. Also, no photos of patients or victims.
    Loss of some of the better photos/ videos for training and PR would be a tremendous loss.
    Save the social media posting until released.
    Most are taken during breaks or lulls; or by helmet/dash cams.

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  25. All good till you need your phone as your last source of a life line. Taking away cell phone could lead to disaster. If the crews can’t fallow the rule of “no photos” then I wouldn’t trust them to fallow other rules and should be removed from the crew. Being a fire fighter is a earned position so holster the phone and cover my back while I cover yours.

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  26. p.s. Bill, you asked, “What do you think? Is this a problem?”

    It could indeed be a problem in the case of injury/fatality/accident situation. Inexperienced or unsavvy agency people have been busted often (for years) for releasing info prior to approval (e.g. publicizing names of persons killed before notification of next-of-kin). Baaaaaad. Most (but not all) media professionals know better than to do this, but the higher-up agency kids have got really (justifiably) hinky about it over the years.

    THINK ABOUT IT: If you’re the mom (or the aunt or grandpa) and you see on the 6 o’clock news that your son/nephew was killed on a fire and that’s your first inkling of this, how bad’s that? YIPES.

    So … limiting what firefighters shoot/post/say with images on social media? Yes. Take away their cellphone — their maybe-best option for communication — because of this? Um, no. Perhaps try to educate agency managers and PAOs on international copyright law? Good idea. Maybe educate fulltime/temp/perm/contract firefighters on the implications of cellphone-to-online images/comments? Uh, yeah, good idea there.

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  27. “Unprecedented” fire behaviour? Laughable. Jumping on the drought/worst-fire-season-ever/never-before-seen-rates-of-spread band wagon, which is false beyond measure.

    When a hotshot is sitting in good black or a safety zone filming the column or impressive fire behaviour, it is hardly jeopardizing the assignment, it’s documentation, regardless of where that media ultimately ends up.

    Agencies are simply worried that their **** ups might get outed on the internet beyond their control. Do the right thing, act with your people’s interest first and there is no issue.

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  28. GLAD to see this issue come up here, Bill. I’ve argued with agency managers for years about this, back when they started trying to tell firefighters that the agency owned copyright to any photo taken by a firefighter. [hahahahahahahaha]

    Um, agency directives, well-intentioned or not, do not override federal/international copyright law.

    Back when Tony Kern was at NIFC, he and I went round in circles about this, arguing about this one lead plane pilot and his website-at-the-time, which years later turned into firepirates.com … and Tony basically said “it’s a safety fail” (taking photos from a lead plane) and I basically said “no it’s not.”

    The other agencies have murmured about this, but the USFS safety and PAO people have often tried to tell employees (even temps and contractors) that they can’t take photos, or if they do take photos, they can’t post them online, or if they do take photos, then the agency owns the copyright — all of which is crap.

    Take firefighters’ and pilots’ cellphones away from them? [snort] Good luck with THAT. Agency people need to just get onboard here and recognize that this is 2015 and not 1999 anymore.

    [/rant]
    kelly.

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  29. Let resource bosses handle their crews when it comes to social media. Crew safety is already their responsibility. No need to have pio’s wasting time trolling the Internet for offenders.

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  30. I was on an incident earlier this year and the command team told us directly that posting any pics to your social media was NOT allowed because the fire was state, or whoevers incidents, property! We respected their request, till after we were off the fire. When I volunteered for a fire district we were told not to take photos of any incidents, car crashes, fires, etc, because the police or sheriff can confiscate them. I agree not to take pics when life is more important than your pretend internet friends. I believe that most “real” firefighters on the line also heed this call. Taking away may not be the answer, but human life is much greater than any amount of thumbs up on your social media.

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