Now that the LA Times published the article on Sunday that said the U. S. Forest Service underestimated they threat of the Station fire near Los Angeles on its second day, some local residents are now calling for an investigation about how the resources were assigned early in the fire.
Many of the complaints revolve around how many aircraft were assigned on the second day, and that only three water-dropping helicopters were initially ordered that morning. The media frequently encourages the erroneous belief that if you utilize enough aircraft, a fire will go out, and the public has bought into this belief. Of course aircraft can’t put out a fire; it takes boots on the ground to do that.
It is always a difficult battle to win when you attempt to publicly debate tactics about a very specialized and technical operation, be it a war on the other side of the world or a fire in your own backyard. First you have to educate everyone who is engaged in the debate, but some people are impervious to education on a particular topic once their minds are made up.
My mind is made up, don’t bother me with facts.
Here is an excerpt from the most recent article in the LA Times about the criticism being aimed at the firefighting agencies:
Big Tujunga Canyon residents and others reeling from the Station fire called Monday for a federal investigation into what they termed a poor initial response to the deadly blaze by the U.S. Forest Service.
“It was beyond irresponsibility, beyond neglect,” said Cindy Marie Pain, who lost her Big Tujunga Canyon home to the fire, which broke out in the Angeles National Forest on Aug. 26.
Pain and other residents said they were outraged by a Times article Sunday that reported the Forest Service had underestimated the danger posed by the fire and scaled back an attack on the flames the night before the blaze began to rage out of control.
“When it’s small, that’s when you jump on it,” said Bronwen Aker, a Vogel Flats resident who set up a website, www.angelesrising.org, for fire victims.
Her home was spared, but those of many of her neighbors were destroyed.
“A lot of residents are incredibly embittered about the way it was handled,” Aker said.
Bob Kerstein, who lost a cabin and a house on gold-mining property that his family owns in the forest, said Congress should investigate the Forest Service’s tactics.
“It’s crazy what happened here,” he said. “There are a lot of heroes in this — the firefighters who were on the line. But the people who should be held accountable are the people who made the decision not to put the fire out in the 48 hours after it started.”
Leo Grillo, an actor who runs an animal sanctuary that was threatened by the blaze, said any investigation should also examine the lack of a more aggressive air assault later in the fire, especially when it appeared to have flagged on Day Five.
“They had the golden opportunity to put it out and they didn’t,” he said.
The Times reported that the Forest Service had been confident that the fire was nearly contained on the first day, and the agency decided that evening to order just three water-dropping helicopters to hit the blaze shortly after dawn on its second day — down from five on Day One, documents and interviews show.
The Forest Service also prepared to go into mop-up mode with fewer firefighters on the ground, according to records and officials.
Early in the morning on the second day, the Forest Service realized that three helicopters would not be enough and summoned two more later in the morning, Angeles Forest Fire Chief David Conklin said. More engine companies and ground crews were also deployed, but it would prove too late.
On Day Two, the Los Angeles County Fire Department lent the Forest Service a heli-tanker but denied a request for another smaller chopper — an action that residents say should be reviewed. Chief Deputy John Tripp, the No. 2 official in the county department, said he withheld the second aircraft because he did not believe the fire was endangering neighborhoods near its suspected ignition point above La Cañada Flintridge, and because the county must hold on to some helicopters for other emergencies.
Thanks Dick
Bill… I apologize… but I must reply to this aged JBS moron who makes my job harder through his nonsense.
Ed Nemechek,
How dare you troll yourself onto a trusted firefighter website. It was bad enough when Leo Grillo was so brazen to do so.
Please crawl back into your John Birch Society hole and stay out of wildland fire decision making… Your crap will kill firefighters and make communities less safe.
I sure wish you’d decide where you actually live because it confounds all of us… whether your home really is…. Adelanto, Hesperia, Victorville, or Landers. Sending shotgun postings to the media nationwide… LOL… not a good way to pursue whatever the hell you are attempting.
For years, you have sent “op eds” to every place that would post your FORM LETTERS. It started out with the IL-76 venture… progressed to the DC-10…. and then spilled into the B-747. You gained quite a following from the uninformed public and politicians. It is funny though… the actual VLAT vendors don’t want to have any connection with you whatsoever. From folks in the know… you’re just a pain in the ass and have no idea what you are talking about.
Ed, exactly how much fire experience do you have? That is what I thought… none.
Ed, you need to update your shotgun replies. The Forest Service and CAL FIRE both regularly use VLATs… and in your area (SoCal), they have been used since the DC-10 was first introduced as a tool in the toolbox.
Ed, you just look like an uniformed ass looking to forward JBS goals who shows up whenever a fire is covered by the media. Good luck at the next JBS recruitment meeting at McDonalds Restaurant in the High Desert (FACTS ON FILE).
By the way… nice pre-recorded phone messages and auto replies to the email addresses… nice touch… but still BS.
ALL A WILDFIRE MEANS TO THE UPPER-CRUST SO-CALLED FIRE OFFICIALS IS: if they can make it big and profitable enough, they can afford another three weeks on Wakiki.– WE MUST CHANGE THIS. —-Ed Nemechek, Landers. CA. –ednemechek@verizon.net
ALL THE U.S.FOREST SERVICE and CalFire HAVE EVER COME UP WITH ARE – LAME EXCUSES (lies) FOR THE PAST 16 years and we have to quit listening to top fire officials whose only motive is to protect their profiteering vested interests instead of public safety ! —Ed Nemechek, Landers. CA.—ednemechek@verizon.net
(Letter to Editor for publication) ———Station Fire victims call for probe into Forest Service’s response. —– Hooray for Leo Grillo (661-269-4010)
, an actor who runs an animal sanctuary that was threatened by the blaze, and is calling for an independent investigation, said “any investigation should also examine the lack of a more aggressive air assault later in the fire, especially when it appeared to have flagged on Day Five”. The Station fire would become the largest in the countys’ recorded history, blackening 250+ square Miles, destroying 90 homes and killing two county firefighters (and almost 50+ more who made a brilliant escape) who died when their truck fell off a mountain road. It’s a huge problem of an entrenched amoral Fire-Industrial Complex bureaucracy (U.S.Forest Service & Cal Fire) that has been running protracted wildfires like this for power and profit and refusing the Supertanker final solution to wildfire, in our state and country, for over 16 years, during which time an estimated over 50,000 U.S. homes and hundreds of lives including firefighters have been horribly lost in fires that never had to be. I hope Leo Grillos’ independent investigation materializes, as any government connected effort will be doomed to failure as government agencies always seem to protect each other. The upper crust fire officials hate the Supertanker water bomber aircraft (DC-10s, Boeing-747s, IL-76s, etc.) that can drop 12,000 to 24,000 gallons of water or retardant in a single drop, because they mean the END of their empire-building wildfires, when the Supertanker water bombers are used at the beginning of wildfires (which has NEVER been done), and they have been obstructing the Supertankers by every means they can devise, for over 16 years and we can’t allow them to continue to get away with it as it amounts to an ongoing attack on the American people and national security, see: (JBS.org or call: 1-800-JBS-USA-1 for free DVD)! –Only a great outcry of citizens can stop this great evil that is engulfing us. —–See: (evergreen supertanker (on internet) for info. or: (waterbomber.org).—The Boeing- 747 Supertanker (24,000 Gallon retardant load capacity (twice the capacity of the DC-10) COULD have been in service over 4 years ago had it not been deliberately obstructed by fire officials. Let’s Demand the Supertankers be used at the START of the fires, and start the investigations and prosecutions of the responsible so-called fire officials,- and make deadly runaway wildfires a thing of the past. — Call: Ed Nemechek – 760-246-8059, or:(ednemechek@verizon.net)
or: Leo Grillo (661-269-4010) – and get organized to stop the fires in the name of God and humanity. —- Sincerely, Ed Nemechek, Landers. Ca. 92285. -760-246-8059.
Investigation into fire response needed
Hooray for Leo Grillo, an actor who runs an animal sanctuary that was threatened by the recent Station fire in the Greater Los Angeles area.
He is calling for an independent investigation of USFS & CalFire’s inadequate response. He said any investigation should also examine the lack of a more aggressive air assault later in the fire, especially when it appeared to have flagged on day five.
The Station fire would become the largest in Los Angeles County’s recorded history, blackening 250-plus square miles, destroying 90 homes and killing two county firefighters (and almost 50-plus more who made a brilliant escape).
There is a huge problem of an entrenched, amoral fire-industrial complex bureaucracy (U.S. Forest Service and Cal Fire) that has been running protracted wildfires like this for power and profit and refusing the supertanker final solution. These improper practices have been going on for 16 years, during which time an estimated 50,000 homes and hundreds of lives, including firefighters, have been horribly lost in fires that never had to be.
I hope Leo Grillos’ (see: Leo Grillo-Station Fire (on internet) independent investigation materializes, as any government-connected effort will be doomed to failure as government agencies always seem to protect each other.
The upper-crust fire officials hate the supertanker water bomber aircraft (DC-10s, Boeing-747s, IL-76s, etc.) that can drop 12,000 to 24,000 gallons of water or retardant in a single drop because they mean the end of their empire-building wildfires.
They refuse to use the supertankers at the beginning of wildfires and they have been obstructing the supertankers deployment by every means they can devise.
We must end their obstructionism. Allowing it to continue amounts to an ongoing attack on the American people.
Let’s demand that supertankers be used at the start of the fires, hold accountable the irresponsible fire officials and make deadly runaway wildfires a thing of the past. – GET ORGANIZED and demand the Supertanker water bombers be used at the START of the fires-see: (evergreen supertanker (on internet).
ED NEMECHEK, Landers. CA.—ednemechek@verizon.net —-1-760-246-8059.
My mind is made up, too. Someone really screwed up on this fire. We lost a huge chunk of our national forest to the bad judgement and missteps by various agencies. The only folks I have any respect for are the firefighters. Unfortunately, they take their marching orders from the screw-ups.I am a life-long resident of LA and I’ve played in this forest for over 50 years. It will not regenerate in my lifetime. I’m not the forgiving type– want my pound of flesh. Those idiots are just as culpable as the miscreant that started the fire.
Leo,I am sorry to hear about your losses, but hopefully all of the wildlife was successfully evacuated and all of your structures in the sanctuary were saved due to proper fire hazard clearances. If not, you need to take some ownership for your losses and your concerns and not start pointing fingers at others. I can’t explain why you believe there was no "air attack" until after 10 a.m. on the 31st. There was a smoke inversion in the area at daylight, but real evidence proves your point to be incorrect. You can fact check me with the NWS if you’d like to.I would hope you understand that there is a thing called AFF (automated flight following) that shows federal aircraft on the incident at first light in areas that they could be effective. Flying low and slow into a smoke filled canyon is not only dangerous, but reckless to firefighters on the ground as well as the public. Aircraft concentrated on areas that they could safely work in until the smoke inversion lifted.As for the DC-10 commentary, it didn’t fly until the fire had burned to ridge lines where it could be safely used. AFF history shows all federal fixed and rotary winged aircraft historical summaries, as well as summaries for ALL three VLAT platforms. Flying a DC-10 into a canyon is just not known as a "best management practice" to any firefighters…. anywhere.Fire Start Date: 26-Aug-2009Date of your concern: 31-Aug-2009 Fire Size at the time of your concern: Approx. 101,000 acres.Date of Fatalities: 30-Aug-2009Dates of Largest Fire Growth: 29-Aug through 30-Aug, 2009. Approx. 70,000 acre growth.
I have photos with imbedded time lines that I will share with anyone willing to explain EXACTLY why there was no air attack on Sunday morning, Aug 31, from 6 a.m. when the sun came up and the flames laid down and the smoke was almost null, until over four hours later, AFTER my news-radio pleas for air attacks, when the first DC10 flew overhead. When the air attack began, just before the wind kicked up and made this into the deadly fire storm that it was, the County put out a release claiming that it had not flown up until then because of heavy wind and smoke … which my photos show is an outright lie. Now their story is changing.Additionally, the county evacuated the town of Acton at 2:30 a.m. But they did not evacuate their own fire camp (16) on top of Mt Gleason, in the direct path of the fire. Why not? This is where we lost two brave firefighters who were trying to find a way out for the 65 trapped inmates. Regardless of amateur or professional status, residents have seen fires too numerous to recount, and they know what a formidable response LOOKS like. They are calling the County to task — not the Forest Service (!) — for what appeared to be a less-than-formidable response until it was too late.
It would be interesting to know to what extent "Line Officer Decisions, Direction, and Oversight" played in the complex mess. As I understand it, within the Forest Service, all decisions ultimately are delegated decisions (line authority) directly from the Chief of the Forest Service.It would be interesting to see how memos and correspondence (and conference calls) from the RO and WO levels may have impacted (contributed to) decisions made at the field levels prior to the media inquiries.In this case, poor decisions were made (duh), but the underlying factors are big ass red faced targets for scrutiny and corrective actions…. and unlike other times….. crap is rolling uphill to the folks who issued poor direction and leadership that crippled fire program managers and firefighters.We can no longer allow folks without fire experience, education, or training to lead fire management programs or to provide oversight to programs they know nothing about. It is a well proven exercise in repetitive failures.