A forestry technician whose primary duties were fighting fire resigned in November after a six-year fire management career in the Pacific Northwest, most recently on the Okanogan-Wenachee National Forest.
The person asked us not to reveal their name and wants to be identified only by the initials, “BC”. The forestry tech had a permanent part-time appointment, guaranteed six months of work each year as a GS-5. They said they had good performance ratings from their supervisor who was hoping the person would come back to work the next season.
They sent us a copy what what was described as their resignation letter, saying, “I am sharing this with you in hopes to shine a brighter light on what I saw in my short time with the agency as shortfalls and areas for improvement.”
Reading the eight to ten issues that led the person to a life-changing decision can perhaps shine a light on conditions facing other federal fire personnel.
Here is the letter. Acronyms that have been replaced with text are in [brackets]:
I will be resigning from the U.S. Forest Service effective immediately due to a multitude of factors including but not limited to-
- Lack of a living wage: leading to reliance on [hazard] and [overtime] pay and putting firefighters in dangerous situations when risks to environment is low.
- Lack of locality pay.
- Chronic prolonged exposure to cancer causing smoke and pollutants.
- Lengthening fire season/expectation of pay periods worked.
- Lack of financial compensation for being on call for over 6 months straight.
- Lack of financial incentive or legal backing for EMT’s such as myself working for Type 2 organizations. Apparently EMT’s on type 1 crews are “worthy” while I’m not. If I’m important enough to be put on an [Incident Action Plan] as an EMT then I’m important enough to be backed by a medical director and paid for my skills.
- Minimum wage in Washington being higher than take home pay for GS-5 wages.
- Lack of off season support from the Agency (mental health, healthcare, employment/job placement).
I thoroughly appreciate the opportunities that this job and organization have afforded me. I have fought fire in places, and environments that I would have otherwise never seen. I have created bonds and memories that will last a lifetime. And for that I am thankful. However, this organization needs to have a serious moment of introspection; the bread and butter of our firefighting operations across this country are seasonal temporary employees — who are overworked and underpaid.
Things need to change, and I can’t risk my physical, mental, and financial well-being waiting for those changes to occur. My four years with the U.S. Forest Service has been very eye opening to say the least. In order to do what’s best for me and my life, I feel it is time for me to hang up the line gear and move on to more stable and financially rewarding work. I appreciate everyone that I worked with, and for, on the Entiat Ranger District.
I am resigning effective immediately.
BC, I know quitting the FS was a hard decision. I also understand why. It is hard work, the hours are long, the pay sucks…I could go on and on about the working conditions and the hostile work environment, but you have to do what’s right for you. Don’t listen to the haters. Do what you gotta do. The FS is just a job. I’m 46 and trust me FIRE is not everything. Go out and live your life. I know it’s scary, but you will find some else to do. I use to work for FS, but now I work for another Agency and am treated very well and that makes all the difference. There is life after the FS. There is life after FIRE. Good luck! I wish you all the best!
Wasn’t going to wade into the conversation. Then couldn’t stop the gears from spinning. Any one close to witnessing the care of Dan Lyons would have a huge chip on their shoulder. The current administrative view is that we know the dangers of the job when we sign up. Yet, for the most part you have to know where to look for the findings of recent studies regarding the long term effects of smoke. If you’ve worked more than five 100 day seasons on fire, actual engagement. You can count on reduced lung and cardiovascular function. Contact your legislator.
The Feds know that if all firefighting positions were allowed to reach benefits status the fiscal system would fail on retirement alone. Which is why the 1069 appointment exists. They are designed non-career path positions. So, we all struggle with years of experience. OPM only counts the season as six months of experience. Many of us have foregone pay just to get that off season class to allow us to apply for the next job. Personally, I exercise more than 15 hours a week to stay in shape in the offseason. Those extra calories get expensive over time. A gym membership is necessary when you live where temps stay in the single digits for weeks on end. Many of us live much harder than we need to. Just because we love the work we do. Hiding injuries, poor relationships and such. Would I trade it for the vibrantly lit stars, not showering for two weeks, ash stained skin and the unique bonds with my coworkers? Hell no.
It’s not just the firefighters that struggle with the cost of housing in the west. Rural county elected’s love the raise in property value. The folks exiting the large urban areas are used to the prices the pay for a place that should be bulldozed. There are way too many examples of why the rural housing market is sideways to discuss in this conversation. We need to protect some amount of the housing market from speculative market. It’s call primary housing zoning, units that you cannot rent or hold as a vacation property you have to live there. Contact your legislator.
H2b and 8a contracting is now wide open for contract work. Both of these options allow for folks to come from outside conus and backfill the positions we so dearly love and these folks will never see benefits. Yet they will live well filling those $30,000 positions. Minor changes in the 1069 appointment will address the current length of the fire seasons and fiscal stability of the workforce. The cost of turnover is a good place to start. Contact your legislator.
Also, be real. Six seasons is only three years of experience at the district level. That is emerging skill development. You can never replace the experience of time in any field. While you may feel that you have the stuff to lead at a higher level are you really ready to make decisions when your incident makes a 100,000 acre run overnight at elevation late in the season and your folks are using 30 degree bags frosting over each morning? I have yet to meet the firefighter that has seen it all. It takes time to get even close. I have meet many solid leaders with less time in than I. Thank goodness most of the know when to defer to experience.
Money is never the reward to happiness. Fulfilling a purpose is paramount.
As I have said many times, it’s a choice and that’s really all it is, many comparisons to Mc Donalds, really……come on….The job is so much more than just pay and it has always been so, you bet there are struggles for everyone of us financially….BIG Time…..And we sacrifice so much, health, family and much more and yet it’s a choice, I missed many birthdays, anniversaries milestones with my kids, I made a choice good and bad I made it. I support this person in his decision to move on and yes I do hope one day that things improve, in the 90’s when I became very aware of how little we made in comparison with other wildland agencies I jumped on board with all the others seeking change thru the WFFA? or what ever it was called, it went no where. In 94 we had our first 1000 hr OT yr and we made good money but it hurt in so many ways. Pursue the change you desire keeping an open mind that things may never change to the degree you would like, I am now retired I had a great career, I have a decent pension, the USFS/NPS owes me nothing………I made a choice…….Peace………
Sounds like the Cherokee.
Yeah good luck! Maybe we can have you back when we take the smoke out of fire.
Congratulations BC!
I loved being a seasonal firefighter back in 71 and 72. Pay was minimum wage and we worked 5 days on 2 off. (obviously for a state agency but the general idea I want to convey is the same). When I was single, all that was no problem and just doing the job was enough. But no one expected any of us seasonals to stay that way. We were expected to move up to permanent jobs that paid enough to support a family or move on to something else. I still value those times but in order to afford a family, I had to do something else.
I hope BC finds something that builds on his skills learned and he can continue in a job he will learn to love. I suspect more than one fire agency would love to pick up an EMT with 6 years experience.
I retired 16 years ago from wildfire fire after 30 years of service Started out on a IR crew for a few years, moved up the organization to the State level in fire management.
Pay has always been an issue. Job classification has always been an issue. Benefits has always been an issue. To address these it will take Congress to act. Until Congress is motivated to make changes in wildfire fire employment and pay nothing is going to change much.
Write your representatives.
I’ll bring an outside perspective to this guy’s situation since work for an agency(CA State Parks) that has the same issues the forest service has. I waited 8 years to get on permanent and passed up twice because my boss and their boss have to follow protocol since not doing so could have cost them their jobs and the california hiring system has no actual merit based hiring for most permanent positions, test examination is the sole thing that is factored outside the interview in the hiring process.
The places that always have positions open are that way for a reason and it is usually because No one wants to stay there, either because the chance upward movement there is slim to none, the higher ups suck, or the area ain’t so good. People go to those areas and use them as a stepping stone to get closer to where they want to be. As far as pay, that is an issue throughout many departments and if you have certs and licenses that are required for you to do your job and they don’t pay you for having those they don’t value you as an employee and at that point when someone asks me to do something that requires having that license or certification I don’t do that because I don’t get paid for it because if you aren’t getting paid to do that you are working out of job class, If you do… document document document in a journal pictures of paperwork with times and dates because if you don’t have that you can get hung out to dry if something goes sideways. Agencies pull crap like this constantly.
To all of the “old school guys” complaining about BCs reason for leaving after six years, I can still read posts on the defunct Wildlandfire.com they said section with you guys complaining about the exact same thing in 1999 and 2000.
Ive worked with State Forestry and assisted with federal partners as well I must say that the federal fire fighting team is an amazing team of people who I had the pleasure of working with. Looking forward to a new season with the willingness to learn the chain of command in their efforts to extinguishing unwanted fires.
Thanks for all your service widfire workers your time has much appreciated. We all have difference though as a team we have been able to overcome them.
It might be that the resigned has recognized that most of our so called leaders do not have a shared sacrifice in our work. Low wages will forever be the case even 100 years from now and there will never be equal pay because there are some that would work for free and everyone has different financial needs and perspectives. There should be however shared sacrifice at all levels and equal opportunity to the same rewards for sacrifice. Having seen the evidence from one forest in region * I can attest that most you will be angry to see the cash awards that are distributed at the GS 11 Level and above. For example the average cash award compensation for the Forest Supervisor of that particular forest is 2500-3500.00 each year without fail. Where the average award for a recreation technician ranges from 150-250.00 and is not consistent year to year nor is the opportunity to gain such. It has been apparent for sometime this particular Forest Supervisor has been receiving a 3% salary bonus each year while being regarded amongst his peers has incompetent. Why is that opportunity not provided to each employee that exceeds at their duties?
oh, the California hiring process is sooo confusing. I was trying to get some Historical guide ones, but they require the examination, which they never have. How are people supposed to take it if it’s never offered. But also, I think it’s ridiculous for them make people take the examinations just in case a job opens up in that one year. (since I believe the exam is only good for one year.)
No wonder why people aren’t happy when the hiring process seems to be even worse than the Federal governments (and the fed process is awful.)
Im a GS-5. Statistically, driving is the most dangerous thing we do. We do that about 80% of our career. A very small percentage is actually the “dangerous stuff”. So let’s be honest about how much “down time” we have as well. I’ve made a boatload of money sitting in a hotel for 2 weeks. Of course everyone wants more money. You could factor in the benefits you get as a permanent employee, health and retirement and such. There is over 75,000 TSP accounts worth over $1,000,000. He rattled stuff off that most of us know. Its the federal government. If you wanna help, vote the right people in that will make the changes. It sounds like he just doesn’t want to do the job.
We do realize its the federal government. 67% of its employees are GS-10 and up. So it’s no surprise that there’s 75,000 TSP accounts at over $1mil. So some of us do wonder why we’re chasing OT season after season to make a decent living while most of our “counter parts” ,and let’s be honest here, are comfortably jockeying a desk….or counting trees or taking a water sample, at 40hrs a week for more pay and padding their TSP. C’mon man a Rec manager spends most of their time in the office cooking up “projects” for the Forestry Techs (Fire) to be doing on their “downtime” and making more in salary than an engine crew does in total.
Again let’s be honest if there’s any prime target to “trim the fat” in the payroll for these agencies and the gov’t as a whole for a budget analyst to find more bang for the taxpayers buck….its not in the fire side of things…..
Salary and benefits packages are generally better in the private sector, municipal and state positions, IME. (Fire or not.)
The main thing I see with the Feds is stability. It’s pretty unlikely your job as a Fed is going away overnight.
“Chronic prolonged exposure to cancer causing smoke and pollutants” is what is properly termed an occupational hazard. That’s akin to a phlebotomist whining about risk of exposure to blood-borne pathogens, or a steelworker whining about risk of falling 20 stories or so. If BC (or anyone else) is so worried about such things, then finding a job where the worst occupational hazard is a paper cut is the best move.
And for all of you who are complaining about poor pay, I encourage you to research average incomes in very poor countries, as well as company scrip. It could always be worse.
Man, just because it “can be worse” doesn’t mean we can’t make it better.
Yeah cause the median income of someone in Somalia is going to help anyone when they have lung cancer from working years for the feds and they have nothing to show for it but the good ol times. When the vast majority of techs call for better pay and actual bennys and a handful of old boys call us “whiners” because you don’t see a problem- you most likely are apart of that problem. Helping us all doesn’t hurt you. This is the US of A, we can “complain” for better and it’s our right and duty to do so-so if you don’t like it then go kick rocks in Somalia blade in hand
We’re in this country, not a ‘very poor country.’ Apples to oranges comparisons serve to mislead, not enlighten, and add nothing to the discussion. Considering the lack of benefits and pay, firefighters aren’t paid adequately for the risks involved.
The Life of a Wildland Fire Fighter can be a tough one; inconsistent work, low pay, hard physical work wears out bodies, have to be willing to move, personal relationships suffer from being gone on assignments, can be dangerous work leading to permanent injury or even death. Even with all this, I been at it for way too long and would do it again.
I can say this though, I have had a hard time keeping a “normal Civilian job”. Doing the same menial task everyday at the same time stuck in a building with no windows. No other job can provide the travel, excitement and adventure of a going fire. It is addicting.
Problem I see is using more contracted resources to cover manpower shortages. This way the GOV does not have to cover benefits/insurance for workers. GOV also reducing jobs by combining units which reduces positions available to advance. I can only see more cost cutting measures coming.
This is an age-old issue. I started as a temp in 1976 and got a 6-20 appointment as a SMJ. No health insurance. I finally was upgraded to a 13-13, GS 6 after we petitioned OPM in 1987. I remained as a Permanent Seasonal…working 26 pay periods a year until I finally became PFT in 2003.
Jack Ward Thomas came to our base the spring after Stormking and I brought this issue up because our base no longer was giving 6-20 appointments to second-year SMJs. We now had temporary SMJs. I told him “Million Dollar employees with 7 to 12 years of experience and qualifications are leaving because of the apparent lack of a future.
Do you still wonder why there are not qualified people to take the place of ADs on IMTs?
I left in my mid-30’s after a decade and a half with USFS when I was a PSE.
Best decision I ever made. More money, better hours, stable work, still engaged mentally and healthier. Was it hard? Yes.
WFF have tons of transferable skills to other industries. If you don’t like it, figure out a path to a new career and make it happen.
There is some sort of weird thing where some WFF think they will never be happy with any other job. Well, there is more to life than working 1000 hrs OT and being away from your family 6 months a year.
Good on you BC.
Best decision ever to leave where you are not appreciated.
Your health in every respect will be so much better.
Get out of that deliberate smoke while you can, no excitement in that
Thanks for speaking up and good luck.
And ya want us to get rid of the smoke for you too? Tall order right there.
A big point that all the people with the taste of boot leather in their mouth are missing is: That’s 6 years of experience and training….gone…replaceable only by somebody with 0…..and BC is not the only one.
Losing a seasonal after 3 or 4 years because it was their summer gig while in college and they’re moving on isn’t a big deal….but losing 6 years and so much potential has a far greater impact. That is a person who their leadership valued enough to hire to a perm and request their return every year. “Devotion ” or “pride” isn’t just about service to the people and some kind of dedication…its also about knowing your own worth and value.
Sadly I see more and more with that knowledge of self-worth and courage speaking up or taking their talents to better opportunities. While those that mock them are showing their own cowardice and lack of self awareness…or they are aware of their worth and are worried they’re about to get found out of how much they are overpaid for their miniscule contribution…just getting by, doing the minimum until retirement while logging on here and lecturing others about “hard work”
This trend continues the agencies are going to be forced to hire less qualified people for higher positions and poorer candidates…..and some cases it’s already happening
The sooner everyone realizes all of these jobs in fire we love were NEVER meant to be long term careers the better off financially, physically and mentally everyone will be. To continue working in any of these positions is at that individuals own peril. Dont blame USFS/ Uncle Sam for crappy wages, no benefits etc….Its their way of saying we dont want folks here for a career. Its literally no different in the private sector. Burger flippers dont get full bennies and $60k+ a year….its not intended to be a career. Why so many ganging up on USFS on these items makes no sense right now. If they “ whoever they is Im not sure yet” get their act together and rearrange all the alphabet soup agencies into something that makes sense with full time year round postions and bennies then yes I can see folks having a right to complain if they are getting shorted. But EVERYONE who signed on up to this point knows whats coming and how long of a road it may be should they choose to stay in and it typically amounts to a whole lot of nothing in terms of money and a career so whining is not allowed.
Congrats BC for making the leap. You wont regret it and with some luck you can possibly find a way to stay involved in fire on a more local level wherever you may land
Rocco, is it’s the USFS and DOI’s way of saying “we don’t want folks here for a career” why make em perm at all? Why have em pay into FERS?
Is it also their way of saying “we want to waste taxpayer money spending time and training for years only to have them walk away to other agencies”? Like “hey we don’t want ya here for a career, but we’re just gonna spend an ass ton of money on the WFAP every year just for fun!”
Don’t get me wrong I see a bit of your point. I get asked or see people asking looking to get into this job if its feasible, worth moving a family, can the support their family etc…and the way starting out wages are and then the time it takes just to get to say GS-7 sadly I tell em the truth and give em fair warning they’re gonna struggle for quite awhile if they’ve got mouths to feed….I often wonder how much potential and dedication or basically how many good quality candidates we’re turning away or directing to better paying agencies and having to hire sometimes a person who is gonna bounce immediately or just get by on a minimum….maybe not a safety risk but not somebody who is gonna push to be better and maybe only in it for what they perceive is some kind of glory.
While I agree on many of the issues raised, I must say that this is more a part of a greater societal issue. I am a member of the fire fighting community, albeit it in a C& G capacity. I am also a GS 13 and have to be real selective where I apply or move to. I can’t afford to live in DC, Denver, Seattle, or Portland unless I want to take a serious cut in the standard of living I am accustomed to. I started my career as a Permanent Part-time employee and soon realized that one needs to be flexible as to how one approaches one’s career, firefighters have the luxury of OT, other types of employees do not. As mentioned by another commenter, work is more about survival than it is passion. If your heart isn’t in it and the job doesn’t pay the bills, then it is time to move on. Just know that there are resources available to you regarding mental health etc.. these are available to you as a permanent seasonal, even in the off-season. Please use your Regions EAP, you also have FEHB available in the offseason, make use of these programs they are there for you. Above all else talk to those who’ve gone before you, the fire community is always supportive.
“I am also a GS 13 and have to be real selective where I apply or move to. I can’t afford to live in DC, Denver, Seattle, or Portland unless I want to take a serious cut in the standard of living I am accustomed to.”
We feel your pain bro and we definitely feel that you’re in the same boat as us….Im sure you’re like our GS-5’s in most general areas and if you moved to those specific areas you would be collecting WIC, on Food assistance and getting by on unemoyment for 6 months….
“Luxury of overtime” LOL ok
Wow. As tone deaf as a “GS fantastic” can be. First world problems of having to cherry pick a duty station, and calling over time a “luxury” is part of the endemic disconnect that the Agencies have – there’s not a better example of the legitimate chasm between the decision makers, and the personnel being asked to implement those policies. Overtime isn’t a luxury, it’s a necessity for the vast majority of forestry technicians (fire).
Frankly, it’s insulting to those of us who DO have a passion for the job, and who assume tremendous responsibilities as first line supervisors don’t make enough money to pay the bills based on our base pay. As a mid step GS-8, the idea of affording a home and meeting my basic responsibilities to my family without a minimum of 500 hours of OT is laughable, but that’s what the Agency expects, given our pay scale.
Take a look around please, Ollie. We give blood, sweat and tears – and occasionally our lives – to this job and you have the temerity to say “then it is time to move on” when the Agency falls short? How, exactly, does one “move on” when you have 17 years invested? A mortgage? Kids in school? I’d LOVE to find something I am as passionate about, or that wouldn’t require me to return to school for 2 or 3 years (while losing income and running up debt) to reset a career in my late 40’s. The truth is, we’ve been debating this for years, and nothing has changed – for every “BC” that has the opportunity and courage to speak up and move on, there are tens or hundreds of applicants waiting to take his/her position in the machine, so why WOULD the system change? The short answer is that there isn’t any incentive to fix the problems, so it wouldn’t and doesn’t. Until we address issues from inside the beast, they will continue. Waving a dismissive hand at them, and by default the people who endure them, is insulting. I hope you’re not somewhere in my chain of command.
People like you are the problem
It’s tough out here on these streets for GS-13s for sure.
I’ve been working for the forest service for 8 years now. 4 years in fire, 4 in rec and timber. I’m a pse. I enjoy the job, and can’t imagine a job that I’m qualified for that would give me near the same level of pride and satisfaction in the private sector. That said, I’m starting to look for other options. I make 35-55k depending on the season, and it’s hard to find a half decent house in my area for under $400k. We are paid as “rest of US” here, and our GS3s (many of whom have a college education or some kind of experience in forestry or the outdoors) make as much as 16 year old fast food workers for their hourly wage. Most of my friends and family outside of fire make quite a bit more than me and have better benefits from jobs that are easier and require only a couple of years of schooling, if that.
Several people here say that it’s not about the money. You’ve been brainwashed. I have several friends who are structure firefighters at mid-sized departments who make 60-90k per year, have a great schedule, great benefits, and will admit that they have it pretty easy compared to us. They get all of that because over the decades they have demanded better working conditions, and the public, recognizing their importance, gave it to them. Today everyone living in the west knows that wildland firefighters are important. The ball is in our court.
I thought firefighters did work for lives and land not money . 13 years. Thanks
People who do this job long term aren’t in it for the money but I sure wouldn’t mind a raise so that I don’t feel the pressure of needing to reach 1,000 hrs of overtime in order to reach my income goal for the year. At the same time I’m not looking at other employment because of the wages…
The smoke exposure is a serious concern for me, I mitigate the best I can but some fires you’re just saturated in it. Do we start getting lung tests right after the hearing tests?
If you’re an emt on a crew that’s great, not to downplay that training but I’d prefer they seriously beef up the amount of REMs there are…and paramedics who can actually make up steep slopes.
My employer (regardless of who) is probably the last place I’d think to reach out to if I was struggling with suicidal thoughts. This needs to be discussed much more in the world of wildland firefighting and avenues for people to seek out help need to be very clear. Maybe they already are and I totally missed it? Do people call HR and sit on hold?
BC, I understand where you’re coming from. I also would bet that you’ll always look back at the years you worked with us as some of the most rewarding of your life, regardless of the bad pay and conditions.
Best of luck to you.
I am not a firefighter. I work a desk job and manage a medium sized company from the comfort of my office. I don’t have to risk my life or expose myself to dangerous conditions to do my job. I have a challenging job from an intellectual standpoint and I get paid a good amount of money that allows me to support my family. I am very fortunate. My company basically builds and sell toys for folks to use in their spare time for recreation. Yeah, nothing of real consequence. But I tell you what, I also live in a high fire danger area and I sleep well at night knowing that there are firefighters and first responders out there that will put their life on the line to protect me, my family, and my business. My family, my business, my town, and really the whole community rely on these brave men and women (firefighters, police, National Guard, Coast Guard, Forrest Service, OES, etc.) to protect us if fire breaks out or some other natural disaster hits us. ALL of them deserve economic security and healthy compensation, health care, and retirement security for doing what they do. Yes, compensation should go up proportional to responsibilities and skill, but the compensation for starting level, even if seasonal, should be pretty significant and to the point where there is strong competition for these jobs and it is considered a significant achievement to be selected to have chance to enter into this line of work. First responders take on a huge responsibility and deserve a respectable and desirable compensation package that will support them and their family with dignity.
Maybe since you took the time to write this response, you will also exercise your Civic Responsibility to share your concerns with your Local, State and Federal Representatives in order to make a REAL CHANGE in a system that is slow to change and who’s worst enemies are many of those within it!!!
And shame on you who were shooting at the Original Author in the back as he walked out the door!
Yeah, I’m the same guy that thinks it’s Foolish to not have more of the VLAT 747.
I feel most people are missing the point entirely with what BC has said. No matter what nothing will change with more and more PSE’s and Temps committing suicide and developing other issues. Beating a dead horse already. I have been to several F.S. funerals and had 2 bros kill themselves. Its a legit issue people.
I agree with BC to an extent. Beginning wages for GS 3&4, where I work, are less than what McDonald’s workers get paid locally. We rarely get local people who apply. I disagree with his H & OT comments, that’s just the business we agreed to. I do think EMTs should get a bump in pay, or some kind of agency compensation. They maintain that currency and pay out of pocket for that. At least a reimbursement of class fees would be a start.
Is it time for seasonal fed workers to unionize? ….because it might be time for seasonal fed workers to unionize.
You can join the FS union as a seasonal.
The union does not care about seasonals
Ha, Union! After 46 years of playing the Fire and Aviation Management game with the US Forest Service, the Unions can offer advice and direction, but they work for Management. Strike Three……
yes. I think they know that the nature of seasonal work makes it difficult to, but as a seasonal worker in a different agency, yes. We need to Unionize.
If all of the people telling him to buck up and be grateful for a job could post their age and the price they paid for their homes in their 30s and 40s it would be appreciated. Im guessing you are out of touch with the cost of living in most places and not just the pnw. You also locked into FERS prior to 2013 and have little grasp on inflation affecting COL.
Amen!
15 years in. 40 years old. Paid about 280,000 for my first house. Made well over 100,000 dollars on a handcrew last year. Not sure why any of that is relevant, but a lot of us love the job, the people and yes the money. Retirement and benefits kinda kick ass. Just take another job, we don’t need a novel about it. A job is a job, treat it that way. We are not heroes or special. Get over yourselves.
My comment is because you used to be able to afford a reasonable priced home in many small towns in Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, etc, etc. Small town home prices in a lot of places with FS duty stations have exploded in part due to vacation rentals and remote workers. 280,000 is pretty cheap for a lot of those towns. Way to go on making 100,000 though, break 1000 hours of ot?
Agreed!
These days $280,000 would literally get you a tear down house on a small lot where I live. And I’m in my mid 30s on a handcrew, 8 years in, 13-13, and haven’t made over $45,000 in a season. Most of my friends outside of the FS are in healthcare or structure fire and make almost twice what I do, working about the same number of hours in a year. Just because you’re doing well, why should the rest of us accept that things should never change?
I was replying to questions asked. Get another job someplace else. Find a 26/0 there are plenty of vacancies in CA. Find a crew where you can get 1,000 hour season. So much crying, all I’m saying is it’s nit all that hard to make a living under a GS/9. The questions were asked, I answered.
Comments ragging on this guy or gal are “back in my daysayers”. Like all of us here are so tough to overcome cancer and mental/ physical health issues (including suicides, never forget that) caused disproportionately by our workplaces. I have a degree in forestry and 6 years experience on a type 1 crew but am planning on a career change because of what is exactly stated here; its just not worth it. Risk is not being met with commiserate reward. It is still the way for some but reality is reality. The feds (forest service in particular) are losing good people in increasing numbers every year.
What do you think John Q Smartypants, Does it cost an agency more to retain an existing qualified employee or hire and train a new employee?
Well said Dan!
It took me twelve seasons to get on permanent (WAE 13-13) on that District long ago. It’s important for folks to decide on their future plans early in their careers.
“How bad do you want this job?” is a good question to ask yourself. Having said that, our society should reassess how much it values professions like ours. It is an important profession these days, a profession that should be more appreciated and compensated than it is. We have lost far too many good employees over the years. Good luck BC, best wishes in your future endeavors.
I can appreciate the frustration but this issue is way beyond just federal firefighters. The fact is, the cost of living in much of the PNW and elsewhere has far outpaced current salaries for most of the workforce. As a 26/0 GS8 supervisor in fire, my salary is about 56k. Obviously I make a lot more than that by chasing the OT, but that comes with a different cost all its own. With average home prices in my area being 350k and above the sense of hopelessness can quickly consume a person. But if I’m going to be honest to myself then I have to realize that I do this job because I truly love it. I could go be a lineman like my brother and make twice my wages but I know I wouldn’t get the same satisfaction at the end of the day. The simple fact is, this job is not for everybody. That doesn’t mean things couldn’t or shouldn’t get better but it’s the truth. And it doesn’t mean we should stay silent about the concerns we are all facing right now. I hope this individual the best of luck in their new ventures and hope they find the same satisfaction that I’ve been fortunate enough to find in fire.
If you in it for the money then move on. I was given sage advice regarding another field once but it applies to wikdland fire fighting. Stay because the work is seesntial to your soul. Stay because you can’t do anything else without looking back wishing you had stayed for the rest of your life. If your not happy or if your not passionate about wildland fire then move on.
Work is never about passion as much as it is survival. People work to put a roof over their head and food on the table. That is first and foremost. If a person can’t do that, then passion is moot.
All these guys who can barely type sentences and 3 syllable words are writing about how others should “get over it” and “if you’re in it for the money, leave”. This showcases the problem. Intelligent people are leaving the profession, the uneducated are hanging in there.
Weather you agree or disagree he’s still a coworker … and should be treated as such.
Forest Service employees are misclassified, potentially in violation of Federal Law.
Even the management can’t keep it straight, calling us firefighters at funeral services but then quickly changing their tune once the cameras are off and we go back to forestry technicians.
The nature of the job places us in rural communities, without enough federal employees to be considered for locality pay adjustment. This is being exacerbated with “zoom boom” towns all over the west. This is another failing of the GS wage scale that is a “white-collar” pay scale, again, which we have been put in due to our misclassification.
I have many more thoughts to rant on, but I’ll leave it here. They don’t care about us, but the veil is lifting and people in power are shocked at how the managers have been derelict in protecting our citizens from wildfires and also subjecting their workforce to their systemic oppression.
Loved the part about not making enough money, but the lengthening of fire season and expectation of more work (OT) was also a problem. Also seems like working a longer season would provide for that mental health support, but I guess thats more smoke exposure. What a joke, shame on you for giving him a platform. Can you run an article on all of us that have been treated well by out agencies and worked our way up to making a boat load of money and still are moving dirt on a crew?
“Can you run an article on all of us that have been treated well” – Why don’t you write it and have it posted here.
The simple fact remains, wildland firefighting is a poor job for people with better options. The hours are long, the pay is crap, the health problems are legion, and the managers are generally incompetent/ignorant. You can almost assuredly do better elsewhere.
BC is wise to realize this so early in their career. It took me 5 years to leave. The month I left, I got a job that valued my experience, treated me like a human being, and paid 75% more.
Another reason I’m glad I’m in region 8 (the southeast). 26 and 0 appointment and the cost of living is manageable without having to rely on overtime. Meanwhile is these parts the federal pay and benefits packages look awfully good when compared to state wildland folks in the region.
Really though the situation for recruitment and retention is getting to be untenable out west. Not just California either all over the mountain west affording housing for your basic federal firefighter (or just about anyone else) is difficult.
If the Super-Grades don’t know where the Service is breaking down it’s because they don’t want to be responsible for getting their hands dirty or actually correcting it.
This is not a problem limited to the Fire in the agencies. Plenty of well-paid planners exist, but there are not enough permanent GS 5-7 doers. The people in control of organizational hierarchies rarely visit the woods or hold a tool. And, in many cases, they never started their career as a technician.
I always find it amusing how people think that the bureaucracy will fix the problems created by the bureaucracy.
Six years as a part time GS-5 and you think you deserve full time pay and full time benefits? Ah, you’re that guy!
If you want a full time position with all the goodies, pursue that position. But you have to be competitive and you have to work hard to get there. They don’t give away those jobs, you have to earn it.
And BTW, nobody likes whiners on a crew. So get your head straight and check the attitude.
Are you being serious, Will? If so what an awful wait to think. Clearly you’re salty and so use to the agency has treated you bad you think it’s normal. Wow.
You are so wrong Will. If these guys are out there risking health and lives then they should be paid well for that, regardless of how many years they have in. You will find yourself on that fire line alone, with your attitude.
Uou are so right. I did 9 seasons back in the 90s and had yo leave due the lack of good pay and benefits. Back then they also had OT caps which cut your pay too. I loved my work but for my health and.my news families benefit I took a position with FED Fire SD. aAAlso they obviously don’t still class them as fire fighters which hurts in retirement.
How many years is enough to start getting benefits? If 6 isn’t enough, then why is 10?
I don’t understand why that is so unreasonable?
Hey Ray Charles. BC is a PSE not a temp.
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You sound like someone with Stockholm Syndrome. Good on BC for realizing there are better options out there for them. You can only do so much with “B u T It’ S i N mY B L oo D”- that’s not gonna pay the bills.
You are part of the problem.
From what I read BC put their money where their mouth is, so to speak.
From what I read you are the one whining.
So, unless you have something constructive to contribute to the situation you should be silent.
Haha wow Will. So you are “that guy” too. The kind that calls people “whiners” when they speak up about real issues in the agency. Six years as a GS-5 is plenty to become full time. It is a very competitive line of work but let’s be real here, alot of hard working , “Solid” dudes get overlooked for these positions because they didn’t “Politic” the right way, or “brown nose”, or “befriend” the right overhead piece. Let me guess, That’s probably the exact way you got your position huh. Haha you sound like a real company man and I don’t mean that in the good way. I applaud the people who have the heart to voice these issues because they truly exist in the agency and it takes a real leader to stand up to “Fire Opressers” like you. I guarantee the guy that wrote the letter is off to bigger and better things.
Ha you are wrong on so many levels….I am 26 seasons into my fire career for the FS and 2/3’s of that as overhead on a hotshot crew. We ask for a ridiculous amount of sacrifice from young adults with the promise of a rewarding career, pay and benefits. Honestly we as a government organization fail to keep up with our promise but continue to ask. I have to look at my employees every day and ask them to push themselves to the limits for a job we love fully knowing they would as a GS 3/4/5 make a higher hourly wage pumping gas and washing windshields it they were not out on a fire.
Yeah, that’s a horrible attitude to approach this particular situation. No one should ever have to put themselves in a dangerous, and potentially life threatening situations, with pay equivalent to a McDonald’s management position. No matter your experience level, you’re doing specialized work and your pay and treatment from the agency should reflect that. No one needs to do type 1 to realize that there are a multitude of things that need to change for the agency to have a healthy relationship with its workforce. It’s not the 90’s anymore man, no matter how much you want it to be.
I agree with will in this aspect if you want better then earn better us army paid less then we are I know but if your here to become rich or any other selfish reason then go find a better line of work there thousands of vets that would love to work in a area that makes sense to us do you job do it good watch the man to your left and right every one come home you out for yourself then go to school move up or jump agency or contract life what you want out of it
Yeahhhhhh don’t try and pull the vet card here dude. An E-1 gets Tri-care and either housing or BAH for their dependents right off the bat. Enrolled in TSP day 1. If a service member gets hurt they’re covered fully medically, and either placed on limdu or if its worse separated but with disability and coverage through the VA for life. And 4 years of free college after is a nice kicker in helping transition to new careers.
None of this is available fed firefighters right away and we ask em to suffer as seasonals and roll the dice with their health for 5-10 years before getting anything remotely similar…..
Not seeing many GoFundMe’s just to survive for service members in the hospital for an injury on the job. Or for their children in LODDs…..
I served…it isn’t cake….but the military doesn’t bail so quickly on their members either unlike the agencies….and the benefits aren’t exactly lacking.
Haha as if being a permanent 5 is any better. You can’t be serious. A gs 5 permanent with a health care plan and putting 1% into tsp makes $2000 net a month on base checks. If you’ve worked on a crew you know we go above and beyond, then to get paid less than minimum wage and rely on income that is not guaranteed ( hazard pay/ overtime) is a slap in the face. Don’t forget sliding into a higher tax bracket because you worked 224 hours in 2 weeks. But you probably worked over your 16 to finish that burn show and average 6 hours of sleep maybe. The job is exciting, challenging, and will hold more pride in your chest than anything else. And when someone decides they don’t want to raise their hand anymore, good on them. I hope he is successful. All the things he wrote are a fact and you know it. It comes down to what you do the job for and the willingness to accept the shortfalls.
GS-5 pay is like $16.80/hr. PGS-5 pay is pathetic and you know it. People risking their lives deserve more than that.
So you have to work many hard years to get the an adequate position?. Not the best positions. Just one that pays better compensation than minimum wage with benefits like the McDonald’s down the street does…? Why don’t you get over your idea of what “whining” is and stop supporting this culture where individuals who are expected to be away from family in a 14-21 day on 2 day off, worked in hazardous positions to earn a liveable wage is the norm and ok…it’s not. That is BC point, don’t gloss over it.
Who are YOU kidding? Noone likes a whiner on their crew, true enough. However, this isnt 1940 , either. The man is right about everything he mentioned. Engine crews and Hot Shot crews are expected to “buck up” as it were, and ignore every other aspect of their lives to fight fires in the most suspect circumstances ever. Who the hell are you to judge? I wouldnt guess you to be any older than 22. You may be on a crew somewhere, but I bet they dont like you
Good on you BC. I hope you enjoy your next career opportunity.