Update at 11:40 a.m. PDT April 22, 2021
The Deputy Regional Forester for the Pacific Northwest Region of the U.S. Forest Service (R6), Debbie Hollen, confirmed the boot stipend policy in an email that circulated on April 21, 2021:
I can confirm that ALL R6 employees who are eligible for a boot stipend will receive one. This article is an example of an unfortunate misunderstanding, that we hope is limited to one National Forest. I know we have tried to ensure understanding of the change in policy related to both the stipend, and the new budget structure across the entire RLT. Boots are covered in FY21.
It remains to be seen if this ALL employees statement applies to all FS regions. On April 20 I asked Debra Schweizer, Acting Public Affairs Specialist in the FS Washington Office that question by email, “Will the boot stipend be available to every employee who qualifies this year?” If I receive a reply it will be posted here. Earlier she had written that the Washington Office “has been working with regions directly to ensure there are enough funds nationally available to cover all fire employees that participate in the program.”
Originally published at 1:38 p.m. PDT April 20, 2021
Some field-going personnel on the Rogue River-Siskiyou National Forest in Oregon, including those with fire duties, are being told they may have to purchase some of their own required personal protective equipment this year.
In the Forest Service, certain field-going personnel and all Forestry Technicians who fight fires are required to have boots that meet the agency’s specifications — at least 8 inches high, lace-type work boots, with lug melt-resistant soles. Prices for most models range from $340 to $560. If worn by firefighters who put a lot of miles on them, the boots have to be rebuilt, repaired, or replaced regularly.
Since 2015 the Forest Service has been giving personnel who are required to have these boots a stipend up to $300 every three years to help defray the cost. On October 1 of last year it was increased to $500. The three-year schedule was then reset for everyone, which meant they all could apply for the stipend again.
Two employees on the Rogue River-Siskiyou National Forest told Wildfire Today that this year they were informed that not everyone who qualifies will receive a full stipend because there is not enough money available.
An explanatory email sent March 29 from the Administrative Officer on the Rogue River -Siskiyou NF laid out the new policy according to Merv George, the Forest Supervisor. Eligible employees were told to submit their stipend requests by April 19 “for final review and determination of reimbursement amount.” And…
Please note: based on the number of Forest-wide requests, the full reimbursement of $500 will not be honored if total cost exceeds our allocation; instead, Merv’s decision is to split the number of requests received by the amount allocated – this includes fire and non-fire employees, for consistency…Permanent employees remain priority and if funding remains available after covering permanent staff, we may look to support temporary employee requests. Requests shall be submitted for employees who truly need/needed replacement boots and only employees with a position description identifying boots as a requirement will be considered.
The boot policy obtained from the USFS website seems fairly clear:
On April 19 I asked Forest Supervisor Merv George if everyone on the Rogue River-Siskiyou NF who is required to have boots that meet the agency’s specifications will receive the $500 stipend. He replied by email that afternoon:
The answer to your question all depends on how many employees submit a reimbursement request. I have sat aside $10k for this purpose as of now. Unfortunately the forest does not receive any extra funding for these reimbursements. Instead it is expected that they will be absorbed by our existing salary and expense line item.
If more than 20 people submit reimbursement requests that will use up the $10k I will try and find more money….meaning hiring less [temporary employees] for this season. Or we can divide up the $10k by the number and give everyone an equal share. No decisions have been made because we are still waiting to see how many folks are requesting it this year.
Sorry if it sounds complicated but until the authors of the boot policy can find a way to help the field pay for them….units are navigating this dynamic tension.
Bottom line…the leadership team and I will do our best to make the $500 reimbursement happen for all our staff who request it.
Later that afternoon I heard from Mr. George again, saying:
I just learned that I have 130 boot reimbursement requests as of now. This puts me well over the $10k I had budgeted for. I just spoke with our new R6 Fire Director about this issue too. Looks like we may see some economic help from the region on this. As I mentioned before, I will do everything I can to honor this policy.
I reached out to the Forest Service Washington Office and explained the situation in Oregon.
Debra Schweizer, Acting Public Affairs Specialist responded by email:
The Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management, has been working with regions directly to ensure there are enough funds nationally available to cover all fire employees that participate in the program.
One of the Forestry Technicians that reached out to us last week had strong feelings. They wanted their name withheld.
These types of leaders treat the budget like it’s taking food off their own dinner plate and it’s disheartening. I’m also really irritated at the Forest and the Agency for specifically targeting the boot stipend as a way to screw people. EVERY OTHER PROFESSION I’ve seen has provided employees PPE, so why would the Agency ask people to buy these extremely expensive boots out of pocket on the ‘chance’ that they get reimbursed? Can you imagine the outcry if the public heard that the Seattle Fire Department expected their employees to buy their own bunker gear or SCBAs?
Interesting discussion – DOI is working on updating their boot stipend policy now. Any advice that folks could provide having been through all of this? DOI currently issues 1/3 of the (old) Forest Service stipend, but on an annual basis – is it better to have $500 once in three years or 1/3 of that every year? Other advice?
HELL David… 60 in Nov. and still going at it. Not diggin line any longer, but, Arduous Pack Testing every year and getting out in the thick of it. Come on back! Amazing what it does for your sanity…
First pair of fire boots Georgia Giants in a Army/Navy store in Denver. $40. as I recall. Good solid simple boots for a unpaid Intern who worked AD on the fire crew. Next Red-Wings as a GS-4 NPS seasonal. Cost more but good comfortable boots. 3 pairs over 30 years. Family expenses prevented me from ever affording Whites.
I fought wildland fire for 13 seasons in the 80s, and 90s. A great pair of boots make all the difference! The 1st pair of boots I purchased were Wasco. Those boots were adequate. I purchased 2 pairs of whites after I was educated about proper foot wear for the job. I also purchased my line gear because the line gear the USFS provided was “CRAP”, and thats’s being nice! I was ecstatic to hear about the USFS providing the $500 boot allowance for their employees. Especially for the personnel that are paid inadequate wages for busting their ass, and risking their life!
Thank You to all the people doing “THE JOB”! I’ll be 60 in June, and have entertained the idea of giving it another go. A guy can dream!!
David, I say go for it! I too will be 60 this summer and I still have my quals, CRWB, ENGB, FFT1, ATBM(T), RAMP, FWPT, ICT4. The body believes what the mind tells it, haha. Yes the young turks can outhike me now but I can still hang. My first season was 1978. Carry-on!
Thanks 31 Seasons, I just got out of a business that I was part owner of for the last 21 years (retired). I’m entertaining the thought of giving it a go next summer. I think my quals have expired. I was a strike team leader trainee on the Panhandle in Idaho when I resigned in Oct.1998. I have so many great memories of people I worked for, and with. Not to mention all the experiences. I still get goose bumps when I talk about or see fire on tv. I share stories of those times with anyone that will listen or is interested. For me it was the best job ever!!!
Yeow! I was way, way low in my previous post for FS salary! I said $120k, looked up FederalPay.org and a GS 15, step 5, in Jackson County Oregon gets $145,155.49/year, thats a biweekly check of $5,582.88, at $69.55/hour. And then there is that plump year-end bonus! Page here says thats the same pay as a Colonel in the US Army. I feel a new nickname coming on here for our very own FS! Oh by the way, a step 10 gets $166,501.88/year. Boots anyone?
Frank Carroll, do you ever get tired of whining about what you perceive as ‘whining?’
Has it ever struck you as ironic? The fact that you are frequently the first post with your OPINION, on every FS or fire related page out there, tells me you really need a hobby. I wish you well in that journey brother.
In case that isn’t your thing or posting on the internet is your true hobby, here are some considerations for you.
First, perhaps just consider posting on the old-timers legacy pages and reminisce about how hard and salty you are with people who understand you. Frankly, you aren’t getting through to a majority of folks with your ‘uphill both ways’ speeches. (That would include the been there done that crowd as well who are in tune enough to be here, often silent, because they are dedicated and still working crowd.)
Here’s some hills for you to work through Frank. Did you know that employee retirement contributions have increased since your heyday?
Firefighters now pay 4.9% instead of 1.3% that you paid. Kinda different, eh? For a GS-05 13/13, that’s $118 a year in 1994 and $742 a year in 2021. That’s a 628% increase, or just sticking to the simple subject matter, more than a pair of boots more per year in retirement contributions out of their paycheck. Meanwhile salary since 1994 has increased only 165%. Starting to see the problem ?
Did you volunteer any PPs back then for your dedication to the job? You want to keep talking about money? Or perhaps dedication? I dare you, bring it.
Just in case you want to talk about dedication here is a little teaser. I guarantee that I have burned more acres than you. Done more HR tasks than you. Created a safer working environment than you. Reduced more sexual harassment than you. (While probably having funnier “Sounds like my date last night” jokes than you to boot!)
The FS has changed, the world has changed. Tune in and give us insight by all means. Your comments are not currently insightful to the world around us. They only give us insight into your level of ignorance. I love learning from folks that have insight to “back in the day.” You’re not one of them. Maybe just share your experiences instead of your judgmental opinions about things you may not understand?
I look forward to your growth Frank. If you are beyond that, than this was civil, and I have a whole new level that is fairly personal and way more blunt than this. I welcome you aboard or good luck, but I stand with Smokejumper Bro, in that I have had enough.
Smokejumper Bro and Bill, thanks for highlighting this moment and important ongoing issue.
I am the national Fire Committee Rep for NFFE. I as well, have been highlighting this potential problem and reality for the last six months to the WO in hopes of heading it off, and also trying to show patience for adjusting to our new budget system. I appreciate everyone sharing and highlighting their experiences as it takes a village to illustrate our reality, not just a handful of people.
I issued a formal notice to negotiate about a month ago in order to address the local budget constraints affecting compliance with the new policy. As a response, the Chief’s Office put out a very direct letter in the Leadership Corner of our regular FS newsletter that there should be 100% compliance with the new boot stipend policy.
I predicted that this wouldn’t be enough for 100% compliance and I have heard of other forests with similar approaches. I am still in talks with the WO to create a long-term fix.
I have a meeting this Friday with a Deputy at the Chief Financial Office of the WO and the FAM Workforce Development Director. I am hoping to work out an MOU between the Union and Management, that clarifies how to handle local budget constraints. As the Union was able to negotiate the original boot stipend six years ago, I am confident we can work with Management to ensure every eligible employee receives their boot stipend in 2021.
If you are currently hearing directly of limitations to the boot stipend due to local budgets, please email me so I can share with the WO at our meeting on 4/23. jonathan.miller@usda
Thank you,
Hoby Miller
(As a defense to Merv, (especially since he has the courage to put himself out there in these comments.) this really wasn’t thrown out there to Forest Supervisors prior to Oct 1. Even past then, it was relatively small potatoes to the other impacts of budget “modernization,” and personally getting a small taste of the volume of emails and “new stuff” these folks have to address, you all should maybe take just a bit off the end of your pitchfork. Allotting 10 or 20k per forest was the norm prior to the changes (as that is what costs had leveled out to since the original wave in 2015.) I have no knowledge of Merv’s recent decisions or attempts to address it and will let him speak for himself there, but generally beating up a Forest Supervisor for not seeing this coming last fall is not very fair or reasonable.)
Only setting aside $10k for boot reimbursement on Forest as big as the RRS is highly flawed and shows a lack of understanding, especially on a year where everyone’s safety boot reimbursement is reset.
Mr. George then goes to – here is your punishment – you want boots (required PPE) then you get less temporary employees. Regional hiring of temporary employees already happened, so is Mr. George going to call those folks that HR and his staff has spent all that time and money on getting hired and tell them not to show up?
Mr. George clearly says ” hopeful that a National or Regional budget remedy will present itself soon.”
It might be a cliché in fire management right now but hope is not a plan. Mr. George in his response is giving us all a lesson in leadership.
Must have hit a nerve!
Leadership is proactive, managership is reactive, credibility is believability, and competence is demonstrated….or not!
Pretty clear!
Hello everyone and thanks to Bill for daylighting this really important topic for everyone to see in this article. I am glad it is out there and hopeful that a National or Regional budget remedy will present itself soon.
Of course it is easy to form opinions when only a few of the facts get shared. I also learned long ago that just because someone says something or writes about something…..doesn’t make it true. That clearly has been the case with this issue on the RRSNF.
Fact is….no one on the forest has been denied a boot reimbursement. In fact the forest has asked for all employees interested in participating with the reimbursement program to submit their requests by April 19th for this first round of reimbursements. They had several weeks to submit their names. As of today we have 132 employees asking to use the program. This is both fire and non fire folks.
No decisions on how to implement this program could be formed until we knew what the need was. So my AO’s email, prior weekly forest wide conversations, and close coordination with our forest’s union steward were all part of trying to find an equitable solution. They were open and transparent communications that clearly got misinterpreted and miscommunicated. Especially since no formal decisions were ever made.
What is important to know is that R6 is going through our first year of budget modernization. Forests are facing employee caps and less fiscal discretion at the forest level. The agency is doing its’ best to be transparent and economically efficient nation wide. This means our budget folks have given us strict guidelines of what each budget line item can be used for. As such the only line item boot reimbursements can be paid with is the salary and expense line item. There is no special job code for just boots that all employees can access. I am hearing the fire shop is developing one for firefighters and this is welcomed news. However none for the non-fire folks who are also eligible.
In my original forecast and trying to finance all aspects of forest management I set aside $10k for this purpose. We had no way of knowing our true need until we did a forest query on this subject. We now know that this amount was way underestimated. It is now my job to find extra money from that one budget line item to help pay for at least 132 pair of boots. Simply put….if I don’t receive extra money I will be forced to hire less temps. This means added stress to other folks already feeling like they may be overworked or understaffed. Be that as it may….we will honor the National boot policy for all employees because I know the importance of it. It was never my or my FLT’s intention of not honoring it.
Let me be the first to say I support all our employees including our firefighters. Taking care of my troops has been one of the most rewarding parts of my job. I have been a Forest Supervisor for 10 years on 4 different National Forests and have been an Advanced Agency Administrator since 2015. I have hired 76 type 1 and type 2 teams in my career and have had the pleasure of working with over 50k firefighters during these events. Simply put…looking after my troops is one of my core values and why I take this job so serious. To even suggest that I don’t care about my coworkers is deeply disheartening and does not reflect my true feelings.
I have decided to respond to this thread because I am a guy who never shies away from a difficult conversation or situation. I am an honest guy who is probably honest to a fault. Many of the comments on here are not true and don’t represent who I am. I also believe my professional record speaks volumes.
In closing…..purchasing 132 pairs of boots this round is what I will do and I will buy more if need be. It is also important to know that no one has told me to do this…..this is a decision that I and the FLT will make together supporting the intent of our national policy. Forest Supervisors are expected to navigate these kinds of dynamic tensions and to figure them out. So that is what we will do.
Thank you for listening.
Your comment about hiring less temps is wrong on so many levels!
Hey Merv,
Thanks for commenting. There is a lot of confusion around the budget this year. My question is this, how can the Washington Office say there is funding for all employees, even saying that employees are not to be discouraged from using the boot stipend, yet some forests are denying boot stipends while others are not having any issues and approving all of them?
Where did the money go that the Washington Office set aside for the boot stipend? Did it get skimmed for other purposes?
Here is the quote from the US Forest Service:
“The agency remains absolutely committed to ensuring that all eligible employees are reimbursed for the safety boots they need for their work. With that in mind, no employee should be discouraged from submitting their request for reimbursement, and requests from eligible employees should not be denied due to misunderstandings of local funding or confusion around the budget modernization effort. As a reminder, employees can apply for reimbursement by connecting to the program’s link on their ConnectHR page.”
Again Merv, thanks for clarifying this muddy situation and explaining how these things work
I would truly like to know, just how is a Forest Supervisor’s year-end bonus calculated? Merv, insights? And scuttlebutt has it that an FS pockets a cool $50k bonus each year, on top of a nice $120k salary. A humanitarian leader might even give that goodie right back to the “temps” for mandatory PPE boots. I’m sure I am not alone here in previously donating bucks to a needy FF to help pay for their boots. If I can afford to pay out of my own pocket for a fellow FF boots once in a while I can only imagine that a FS could surely afford to do so. Now that, smacks of leadership!
” I have been a Forest Supervisor for 10 years on 4 different National Forests”
Two and a half years at each Forest, that kind of itinerant “leadership” is a huge part of FS managerial derailment. Furthermore the threat to hire less “temps” (Hint: they’re employees) is insulting, coercive, specious, tone deaf, and a lie.
My Forest has gone through 6 Forest Supervisors in as many years. It’s no wonder employees couldn’t care less what they say or think because, in a year, they’ll be gone and the next “leader” will email us with their inane in vogue buzzwords and disingenuous grand plans.
Having only position power is a sad and impotent way to helm an organization. You were busted in the act and are now attempting damage control. Personally, I think more employees need to start fighting back via traditional and social media. Employees possess the power not people misleading bureaucratic titles.
You were told by the WO and the Union that you had to provide the boot stipends for your employees. You didn’t decide out of the kindness of your heart. GTFO. Forestry techs on your Forest still cannot apply for the boot reimbursement and get approved as of last week I have heard. Can you say with honesty that next week your “troops” will have their stipend requests approved with no issues?
You seem to be the only Forest Sup trying to pull these shenangians, why haven’t other Forest had these issues? The Umpqua or Fremont Winema for example? It wasn’t even a bump in the road for them, forestry techs got the email about the boot stipend resetting and increasing last October, submitted their requests and “boom” received their stipends without issue. No reduced seasonal employees being hired or even threats of that happening. Why would you even tell the media that you are considering hiring less seasonal employees due to the boot stipend? Thanks for motivating me to move up in this organization, by teaching myself and my fellow forestry techs how not to lead. It’s just as important as working under a good leader I am finding out.
Fully in favor of stipend for boots, would have been nice to have back in the day. That said, I am also fully in favor of supporting todays Forestry Technicians and applaud the folks pushing forward to make positive changes. It will be a struggle for sure. I am not in favor of the old school criticism that is common here. It was what is was and that’s how we were taught. We were happy to have a job that let us work outdoors working projects and fighting fires. People have come and gone from this job in waves for years, and as I have said, use the seasonal time to decide if this is good for you. If the FS finds that it can’t keep people (which it can’t) then hopefully it will be an eye opener. The job is what you make it, poor management and all. If you don’t like it , move on, or move up in the organization and make positive changes, if you decide to stay.
Face it folks, money is tight, save the funds for the newbies so they don’t end up buying inferior boots like many of us did when we first started. Reminds me that I’ve got an extra pair of bad ass Viberg’s in great shape and some Nomex that I can donate to our fire cache since I’m 60 with a bum leg and don’t expect to be hiking any fireline again.
As an old fart, this issue is kinda fun to read about. I can understand the perspective of everyone involved. Hand made boots are expensive and all those cost conscious tax payers are sticklers for how their taxes are spent. There are less expensive boots on the market, but those are kinda rank I know. Short of increased taxpayer generosity, I would prefer another temp swinging a Pulaski. But then again, I would also prefer other spending priorities in many other areas of government.
The Forest Circus wastes more money than any other govt agency. The bs that they spend on is unbelievable. Besides being an incestuous group they are totally wasteful. I left them due to the true saying… Guilt by association….. Disband the Forest Circus
And there is the exact problem, the USFS loves to call their system “leadership” while it is actually “managership”. I never “managed” a handcrew, I led it, from the front. Actual leadership is a philosophy that one embodies, inspiring the best in others, rewarding the best in others, creating a holistic team where each is his/ her brothers keeper. It may sound corny but it happens all the time within real teams. Are leaders born or created?, possibly born with a passion and created by a need to fulfill it.
After 34 yrs in the agency, with time in a management positions, I find you comments to be spot on!
Firefighters put their bodies and lives literally on the line. Been there done that. PPE should be purchased or reimbursed by the hiring agency & be part of the annual budget. For Goddess’ sake, firefighters protect us. Let our policies and tax dollars protect them.
Funny thing is that Merv also requested a Brand New Jeep Rubicon, tricked out with FS gear, for his supervisor vehicle.
The request was denied, thankfully.
Can you imagine the uproar if the Forest Supervisor had a brand new Jeep Rubicon to drive from home to his office desk, while denying boot stipends and threatening to limit their fire response capabilities by not hiring enough temporary firefighters?
When I started in fire my crewboss drove the oldest rig, because he wanted the crew to have the more comfortable, newer rigs…
We need our leaders to go back through the leadership courses the agency offers.
I liked the BLM boot stipend. Every year at orientation I signed a form and got $100. None of this bloated system the FS has created with keeping receipts for 6 years, filling out online forms, the issues with seasonals in pay status etc. The boot stipend is a great example of a good idea gone FS.
The disconnection of leadership on the RRS is absurd. Thinking only 20 folks will be requesting boot reimbursement is silly. Then prioritizing permanent employees over 1039 seasonals. Someone needs to sit down with that Forest Sup and have some basic conversations about planning and leadership.
Thanks to Wildfire Today for bringing this to the light.
Wasn’t it here just a few days ago we were aghast at the “leadership” embodied in the Chief that failed to highlight agency funding needs? Based on her response (or lack thereof) there must more than enough funds available to cover boots and all other PPE for every employee, as needed, regardless of position, grade, or appointment. We know that’s not the case in the big picture, but if anything should be covered off the top it’s the required PPE. Boots are no different from hardhats, gloves, nomex, flight helmets/gloves, ear-plugs, chaps, etc, etc. Since the agency specifies boot specs they’d better ante-up and provide coverage for the employee to purchase. I dug my first fireline in ’74 and while I never availed myself to the boot reimbursement in the final years before retirement it was a glimmer of hope that the agency was finally providing something necessary for the folks who need them. Now to hear them crawfishin’ on their own policy direction is merely typical of what the agency has become.
My first pair of Whites were my college graduation present from my parents! I surely didn’t have the $325 bucks as a newbie GS3. I recall the old dogs trying to step on the fresh black leather toes of my new boots. Believe it or not I still have those boots, rebuilt three times and only one panel of original leather remains. Re the RRSNF, I transferred there to finish out my career, worked up to a GS12. I did the budget/workplan for my Dept., 100 workplans/ year. I caught the admin cooking the books to the tune of $300,000 for one year alone. They actually had two sets of budgets, the actual, and the cooked. It took me and Finance at the RO in Portland to call BS on their baloney and boy were they ticked! So yes Virginia, there is a Santa Clause and a national job code for the boot allowance. Makes one wonder if admin is up to their old tricks?
I will say I think the National Federation of Federal Employees needs some credit in this as well. They have been working with the WO and even got the chief to issue a letter basically stating that boot allowances will be approved. This is just a clear case of one Forest supervisor operating on their own in the dark in their own world. Folks of NFFE doesn’t know they can’t help. But props to whomever spoke up!!
Well I started hearing about this from other Grassroots Wildland Firefighter members, then I reached out to some folks on the Rogue Siskyu and confirmed it. Then I emailed Bill and connected everyone. Bill put together a great article.
I’m a big NFFE fan, and I’d ask them to post something for employees to show their supervisors about the boot stipend. Draft a PDF document we can download and print to show supervisors. It can’t always be behind the scenes.
I’ve since heard of other districts and forests limiting or not allowing boot stipends as well.
There really needs to be a clarification from the Washington Office all the way down to the employees. Something is off.
I am the NFFE Regional R6 representative and discussed that employees were being told fund were nit available for boots with the Regional leadership. The Union clarifying that all eligible employees should be getting the boot stipend. There has also been correspondence floating around from the WO as others mentioned verifying eligible employees should get their stipend and l even clarified this on a recent R6 townhall employee meeting. NFFE fought hard to get this boot stipend for employees and we continue to fight to endure our agreements are up held. I am glad the article seems to have resolved the issues for the employees. If others are still having issues contact your NFFE Union rep we have tools to enforce our agreement with the Forest Service.
Hey Erin, check with the Scenic Area. Email me if you’d like more info smokejumperbro@gmail.com
Thanks Erin!
Thanks, Bill, for daylighting this issue on the RSF. Hopefully, if any other forests were doing this it gets remedied as well. Good work.
I’m with Smokejumper Bro, tired of the OG who accuse current forestry techs of “whining” and who think just because they didn’t get boots (or whatever) that forestry techs today shouldn’t. You should’ve gotten them. Now folks do.
Oh, and I was a GS-12 when the new policy came out and recently retired as a GS-13. I never took the boot stipend. District Rangers aren’t technically eligible, but I’m not saying some of them don’t squeak through.
Crazy thing is NFFE has been working with the WO and the chief even restated that boots were to be approved. Some people like to act on there own apparently.
Amen! I get tired of hearing the “back-in-my-days” try to justify poor treatment of employees just because they had to endure it. They should want things to be better.
There must be loopholes because I’ve seen a ranger GS-13 get the boot stipend, twice!
Well within 2 hours of this story being published we are hearing all boot stipends on Merv’s Forest will be approved!
Sometimes the leadership just tries to pull stuff by in the dark, but it’s still wrong and abusive behavior.
Thanks Bill
Leadership uses in the dark tactics all the time. If we don’t know about there is nothing we can do. Employees need to speak up!
I would say, log some timber and buy the fire crews what they need to do there job…
I agree. The stipend should go to seasonals and lower level GS levels – NOT the GS 11 to 13 district rangers as I have seen.
concur, they cannot afford it.
Couldn’t disagree more with Jim and Frank. Were candy bars a nickel back in your day too?
Sorry, boots cost $500 now. That’s a week of work for people at the GS3 level. Hell, I’m a GS6 and $500 is more than my weekly take home pay after taxes, so yeah it is a big deal if the stated policy isn’t followed by some forests.
And I’m tired of hearing the old trope about “commitment to the job.”
How dare anyone question the commitment of temporary, seasonal firefighters who can be gone over 100+ nights from home a year, and hardly earn a living wage to boot. Pun intended 🙂
Yawn. Boots were $300 and we made $2.83/hour. We managed. Time away from home? Don’tlike that? Get a new job. You don’t demonstrate commitment by just showing up for work, home, or away. Buy seasonals boots and let everybody else figure it out.
You are inspiring. We are so lucky to have had people like you lead the way for the future. Great job being part of a solution and offering such great advice for current forestry techs.
Looking at you’re career your comments match what I have come to expect from people in those positions. YaWN……
Wow, you’re a real piece of work. Stay retired.
Haste to say it but I agree with Frank
Yeah. Us Old Guard struggle with whining about boot stipends. We bought our own Whites. It’s part of the commitment to the job. If anyone deserves a boot stipend, it’s the seasonals who have the least money and the greatest need. The permanent full-time staff has a job and a salary. They should take the hit, not the kids who can’t find two dimes to rub together. I’m not sympathetic. Take the $10,000 and make sure, as the WO PIO said, that “Fire” personnel get the money, and then make sure seasonals get the first bite.
Agree with you Frank
If anyone gets help it should be the seasonal FFTR.
Spent 30 years in wildfire. Never expected the Government to buy my boots or reimburse me. Expectations of todays firefighters are not the same as when I was on the line or in management.
Yup, and the expectations of my mortgage company are different too.
Oh and the daycare costs money now-a-days too…
But yeah, continue to bash today’s firefighters. Real cool. Thanks Mike for your great contribution.
Well said! Wages “back in the day” were also more competitive.
You said they were “whining.” How is that not bashing?
I didn’t bash I said they are not the same as when I was on the line in the early 70
So you object that I support that seasonal FFTR should receive help for boots?
In the 35 words above, two straw man arguments were created. A waste of time.
Yet people still complain about taxes and the government blowing money when agencies are on a literal shoe string budget.
SB, go do something else or do something to contribute to a solution. YOU should quit bashing the hard-working, dedicated old guard that came before you. Sounds like this FS is doing everything in his power to find a solution to this issue. More than I can say about everyone who complains about Forestry Technician concerns. At least the Grassroots folks are willing to go to bat.
I think your situational awareness is unzipped…
SBro is Grassroots.
And old salts will stop taking lip from young bucks when these inherited issues are dead. We get it, the job was harder because the equipment sucked, the days were magically longer, the hills were steeper (all the erosion from the tears of the lazy younger generations), the sun was hotter, the fires bigger, am I forgetting anything?
This FS is only ‘doing something’ because he got called out. My two prior FSs arent in the news because they implemented the policy as directed.
Hey Jeff,
Thanks for the thoughts. I am going to bat for every Forestry Technician, and unfortunately, sometimes that means defending them from retired Forestry Technicians. I can’t explain why people who know how bad it can be on people, and know it’s gotten exponentially worse in the past 15 years, and still want to knock the current folks down, just because they are still upset with how bad they have it.
So I’m not going to sit here idly while people say we are complaining, or whining, when a boot stipend we earned is arbitrarily not paid out because a non-fire, GS-14 couldn’t figure out how an excel spreadsheet works when adding up their budget.
Houses, cars, families, life were all cheaper and the wages were relatively higher 20 or 30 years ago than they are now, and the expectations of today’s Forestry Technician both physically and mentally are exponentially higher. It’s unsustainable.
I get a lot of advice from retired, awesome Forestry Technicians who want to help all the time. It’s great.
I appreciate the respectful response, and mine above was not. I’m frustrated with the current generation blowing off the advice from those that lived it before, however different the situation is now. I’m one of the fortunate retired FS Forestry Technicians that had a good career, got paid fairly well to do a job I enjoyed (more frustrating than not, with all of the issues from the 70s/80s), and learned from the best. I just hope that the folks working now can enjoy the work also. I believe in the Forestry Technician, because of the diversity of the work, and I’m completely in favor of much better wages. From what I’ve read here, the FS on the Rogue did everything in his power to make sure everyone is receiving the boot money. If this forum lit a fire for that, then good. But it sounds like his hands are tied somewhat also. I don’t agree with mentioning that it may take hiring less temps to do it. Sounds like there are other alternatives.
I still believe in using seasonal time to figure out if this is right for someone, then stay with it, make it better, or move on. I would be happy to help in the cause, but I don’t support some of the concerns that are at the core of the movement (if that’s a correct term). I wish you all the best in moving forward, starting with the pay. In my opinion, that’s #1 and would keep the best people around.✌
Thanks Jeff, but you’d have to actually believe the Forest Supervisor was being honest. If this article made it to the deputy regional forester (it did) and she cleared up the issue, then why didn’t the Forest Supervisor reach out to the Deputy Regional Forester himself and go to bat for his employees?
That’s the issue. I’m not sure I have faith in either the Forest Supervisor or the Deputy Regional Forester. Sounds to me like they both got caught with their pants down, and had to be publicly shamed to stop skimming off the employees.
And it wasn’t just the Rogue Siskyu Forest either. So there is a messaging problem in the region. And as an employee it’s really hard to stay on top of this stuff. It’s not our job to do that, but the corruption is out of control and as employees we are stepping in to stand strong and advocate for ourselves.
We know that our leadership won’t stand up for us as evidenced in this story and the quick outcome. This was literally resolved within two hours of publication vs. Merv claiming he has been working with the region for 6 months on this issue… Give me a break Merv!
So Jeff, I hope you see what I’m saying here. It’s rough these days and often, the leadership adds to the trauma
Jeff, buddy. SB does more than you could know for Grassroots and today’s forestry technicians. The old guard didn’t deal with the same size fires, the intensity of fires or the current length of fire season, which is all backed by science. Smokejumperbro is actually pushing for change, not just talking about it but day in and day out involved in meetings, outreach and information sharing. I have personally been a part of multiple meetings with SB and I have listened to him hold dialogue with lawmakers, current and former Forest management and lowly forestry techs. He is the change and I hope he doesn’t go do anything else, we need him to stick around. Think before you comment Jeff.
No one should take a hot for required PPE.
Yep… But when you used to having Mommy and Daddy buy you everything…
Totally agree. Words are words, money is always in finite quantities. It’s reality, quit whining and appropriate it fairly. I’m Old Guard and I had to buy my own boots. Sheesh!
And arent you glad we dont use steam engines anymore? I bet the old guys in your day ridiculed you for using anything other than a shovel and an ax too. Go back to your soap opera. It’s a benefit, when everyone else is getting it, there’s grounds to gripe. Would you seriously ridicule your grandchild for having a computer lab at school because you didn’t have one back in your day? Shut the box of fudge up about the old day, because life has improved and it’s crazy that you geriatrics have an issue with it. What hasn’t improved is wages, and it would be great if you showed us the same respect you think you deserve.
You and Frank Carroll oughta go back to using your typewriters and the US Postal Service. This newfangled internet stuff is just too easy for you Old Smart Fellas.