On August 4 Governor Gavin Newsom, U.S. Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack, and new U.S. Forest Service Chief Randy Moore met at the burn scar of the 2020 August Complex of fires in Northern California to discuss state and federal collaboration on wildfire response and fuels management across the West.
During a press availability, Secretary Vilsack uttered words we don’t hear from Chiefs of the Forest Service, or certainly from Secretaries of Agriculture:
We are prepared to do a better job [of forest management] if we have the resources to be able to do this… Candidly, I think it’s fair to say over the generations and decades, we have tried to do this job on the cheap. We have tried to get by, a little here, a little there, with a little forest management here, a little fire suppression over here, but the reality is this has caught up to us.
We have to significantly beef up our capacity. We have to have more boots on the ground… And we have to make sure our firefighters are better compensated. Governor, that will happen.
We need to do a better job, and more, forest management to reduce the risk of catastrophic fire.
Governor Newsom said he has been exploring way to obtain more fire aviation resources, lamented that there are “only a few contracted DC-10s nationwide”, and said he was looking at how “to get the 747 back in our hands, and that’s been a challenge, that thing has been sold, so we’re still working to get some more aerial equipment.” (This statement is queued up in the video below.)
Secretary Vilsack said the Governor’s request for additional aviation resources, “… Came to my desk. One of the challenges we’re working on right now is making sure we get the Defense Department personnel necessary to fly the planes. So sometimes it’s not even the planes, it’s the pilots, the people who know how to fly these planes…I was given instructions to… make sure we have the people in the planes to fly them.”
The Secretary was most likely referring to the military Modular Airborne FireFighting Systems, MAFFS, which can be loaded into C-130 aircraft to temporarily serve as air tankers. They are the only military air tankers used on wildfires in the U.S. Each requires a seven-person crew, additional support personnel, and often a third conventional C-130 for every two MAFFS that are activated.
The Secretary’s comment could be the explanation for why only five of the eight MAFFS have been activated this year. On July 27, wondering if there was a specific reason why the remaining three were still parked, I asked US Forest Service spokesperson Stanton Florea if the three were available if needed. He replied on July 28, “There are 3 additional MAFFS-equipped C-130s that can be brought into service, if needed.”
As of today, August 6, there are still only five MAFFS working.
Depends on what you put in them. BTW, the new KC46 is being delivered…
https://www.boeing.com/defense/kc-46a-pegasus-tanker/
I hated having to drive to a motel coming off the line. As Jesse said, it’s not unusual to have to drive 2 or more hours to get to bed down which means driving 2 or more hours back to the incident. Throw in servicing the engine, and getting something to eat, and it can easily mean only getting two or three hours of sleep. Many times I told the powers that be that I was done, and that it was downright dangerous for me to drive anywhere. I parked my engine in a safe place, and me and my folks crashed on some nice soft duff. I can say too that the USFS guys I have worked with over the years have been top notch. Sorry Mr. Miller has such a poor attitude towards Cal Fire. I always told my folks to respect the other agencies we worked with, and to always remember that the citizens we all work for could care less what color our engines are, or could care less about what our shoulder patches say. What they do care about is their personal safety and the safety of their families. As public employees we have to be able to say at the end of the day we have tried our best to keep those we work for safe.
Re: Old Captain
Thanks for your perspective from the “dark side”..haha. I had the same stance when I was a captain. In addition to my previous post I think 24 hour line shifts were also a waste. You’re really only getting about 12 hours of work while forcing your crew to break the 18th watch out. Put everyone on 12’s with a day and a night shift (if permissible). This provides for more adequate rest and nutrition.
Old DRHS,
While I can understand and agree with some of your points on pay equity, I also have a few questions and observations to share with you.
It is a good distinction between forestry and range techs and “structure” department firefighters that the latter are trained and expected to respond to “all-hazard” calls during a 24 hour shift.
First question, why do these folks make a higher salary? (Possible answer, higher visibility and a union that can bargain wages?)
Second question, why should “structure” firefighters make higher wages paid by federal tax payers when performing “unskilled” wildland firefighting duties? (Not to mention paying OT for the replacement firefighters back on their home district and being paid for every other day off lounging around in a hotel room.)
Lastly, how do you reconcile the fact that California FS engine crews are trained and equipped for “all-hazard” response and many of our forestry techs are trained and depended upon as EMTs, yet none of these equate to a higher payrate? (We just expect these grunts to be happy we “allowed” them to have the privelage of being trained and to serve.)
Not to go negative on fellow fire brothers and sisters, but I have heard for years about the dysfunction of Calfire/CDF in wildfire response. I got to see it up close and personal two falls ago. What I got to see was pure chaos. Reckless, dangerous, and ineffective tactics. An FS hotshot crew leading the way to not only put together a coherent plan, but then lead the way in implementing it and likely saving hundreds of structures and millions of dollars in additiinal suppression costs. All on the hard work and risk of a bunch of GS3-7s and inmates.
A snapshot of the actual performance of these “24/7 all risk firefighters.” (Hate to use an anecdote togeneralize, but this experience matchedthise shared with many by many trusted observers over decades.) After we had attempted to burn out an overslung indirect dozer line and had a 747 and type one helicopter drop with no warning on us, and discovering the line didn’t tie into anything anyway, we pulled back until a plan was made. (There were 30 helicopters and LAT on this fire, that were freelancing with one air-to-gound over 50,000 acres and 5,000 firefighters.) Later that evening, a bunch of North Bay engine crews showed up. They decided they were going to charge down the same hill and “get it,” still with no coherent plan. We gave them our hosepacks as they gave us judging looks for not engaging in their bravery. They came back up the hill shortly after, physically wasted and after being hit with a type one helicopter drop, cussing that the same thing killed someone the year before. One crew remained and after draining 10,000 gallons of water in an amazingly short time, I went down the hill to check it out. They had run our hosepacks on a random dozer line through the middle of the black (it was black on both sides before they went down there), and had dropped our hose in heat burning it up and wasting all that precious water without communicating anything. After our 24+ hour shift burning out with the hotshot crew, we were able to get a hotel room in a hotel that was full of CAL OES Structure engines, clearly not that tired hanging out in the hotel pool, while still being paid.
After sitting with this for a bit, why in the world would fed wildland firefighters deserve to be paid less? Especially when you consider like Old DRHS states, they get to have a life with actual scheduled time off while making double or better? I get that California is it’s own animal, but I can find more affordable housing in many duty locations in CA, then my town in Idaho overrun with rich Californions, so it is a mixed bag everywhere and guess who will be in California this fall protecting the land of milk and honey? A bunch of underpaid fed firefighters from “low-cost”states where we can’t afford homes either.
Re: Holy
Being a fed union rep you should be the first to understand fed unions are pretty much a waste of time. They can’t do anything more than protect the lazy. There is no negotiating wages, benefits, or allowing a strike.
I do see where you’re coming from and what you’re speaking of has also been a huge problem of mine for a long time. I’ve witnessed first hand the ego’s being bread at the CAL-Fire training facility. It goes the other way too, as demonstrated by your example. Perhaps one needs to understand how they got “entitled” to hotels. It was slipped in during contract negotiations and was expected to be rejected. However it was overlooked during the review. If you talk to a lot of those guys they hate having to drive 2+ hours from base camp to go bed down. Also there is no work rest or R&R guidelines for them to follow. Former captain of mine went state and did 52 consecutive days away from home. No thanks. A simple fix would be to create the wildland firefighter category in which all Fed agencies fall into. Remove hazard pay but pay everyone nationally from the time they leave until the time they return. This does two things, allows for easy time keeping and also reduces the after hour antics as employees are still on the clock. This is just my .02.
Willy Smith, have an agenda maybe?
While I, and most FS personnel strongly support more mechanical treatments as a tool, you and ohers are just plainly misguided in believing it will fix our fire problem. I have fought fires ripping through private timber lands and even vineyards. Fires often blowup simultaneously across all cover types, ownership, and protection boundaries on the same day across the west. As a response, everyone wants to blame “fed policies,” and “environmentalists”? Did the cows, loggers, and volounteer firefighters all coordinate a nationwide strike on those days? Or is there perhaps something bigger at play?
While I completely understand your position please understand there is so much bureaucratic red tape to get everything moving its usually too late. As previously mentioned a complete policy review should should done in order to make the necessary changes in fore suppression. A lot of time those in charge and any given forest, district, or park do not have the technical understanding of Fite suppression. They fall back on “policy states…blah blah blah” It’s just like those who have met their maker by blindly following a GPS navigation device while not paying attention to what right out of their car windshield.
By the time everyone (Politics) stops bickering and really focus (if they (Politicians) even know how to focus) on the problems there will be Nothing, Nothing left to burn. There use to be forest management, that appears to have been cut out of the budget a long long time ago.
So we PAY now, with peoples lives, our forests, our animals habitat and our homes.
No money was saved just hundreds and hundreds of miles of devastation and destruction.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The feds stopped cutting timber decades ago. Forests are completely 100% overstocked and not at a natural condition. The solution is prevention. Log the fed ground in a sustainable sensible manner. The forests should be thinned to a natural condition. Treetops limbs and logging slash should be chipped and utilized in cogeneration facilities to generate electricity. However the environmentalists and the politicians do not support the cogeneration industry. Unfortunately a lot of high-ranking forest service officials would rather watch the forest burn than see a loaded logging truck leave the woods.
Winter will come and this press hype will all be forgot. Next fire season another town or two. The insurance companies will dig into the pockets of residences again in California.
4) Continuing: Start responsible logging. Open saw mills, employee people. (above)
5) Complete or start water storage projects, i.e. dams and lakes.
In 1980 a wildland fire fighter attending (as a Fellow) National Fire Academy wrote a master thesis, Using Jumbo Jet to Protect the U.W.I. (urban wildfire inter face). This writing was accepted by academia, and published. At the time was probably a point of much humor and some discussion. Check item number 2 of a previous post (above).
Maybe they should have another Meeting.
Nice to see the fat cats off of their butts and out there to see things in real time !
The entire system needs a rewrite, wait and see policy will NEVER work in times of climate change !
Wake up all you sheep and let your voices be heard !
Okay I am going to get on my soap box now….
First I do agree that fed FF’s need a raise and benefits, ie. Health Insurance, however I do not believe that Fed WL FF’s should be at the same pay scale as Cal Fire and other municipal FD’s found in Calif, Calif is the exception when it come to pay. there are many locals in our country where 15-20bucks an hours is decent pay, but not in calif, I know I was born and raised there, spent most of my career on the SO Cal ABC forest, I moved away so I could have a decent standard of living.
If you want that big money then go work for one of those departments.
Cal Fire is a 24-7 agency, we are not, They are trained and equipped for Structure fires, we are not, they are truly all hazard. we are not….really we are not, yes we assist with hurricanes and such….All risk…..Yes…..
If we say we want more money for our rank and file then we need to see that raise Transend all the way to the top of the GS scale and the only way that happens is if we have a stand alone series.
I know this is not popular with most, but an entry level FF should receive entry level pay w/ benefits. And I believe that entry level pay should be increased, however entry level pay is just that, a living wage, what ever that is, I have seen that maybe 15.00 an hour, that’s not for me to determine.
If you want big pay then the Feds are going to have to transform into something else other than a true resource agency that has FF responsibilities…..Example would be the FD on Camp Pendleton Marine Corps Base DOD-GS-24-7….They make decent money and they have time off…..Just saying……
I really hope it works out….it’s broken and it needs fixing……
Jim is this you?…haha
I do agree with this. This is why I was a proponent of SCBA use and EMS response in the CA Fed agencies. However that came with a lot of opposition. Want to get paid like the red trucks need to play like the red trucks. Yes Wildland firefighting comes with risk. We her in CA do things a little different when it comes to Federal fires and responsibilities. Outside of R5 it’s a whole different world. As you mentioned this is exactly why I chose to leave for the other fed agency. Having free time in the summer is a foreign experience.
The wildland fire fighter is a breed in it’s own. I don’t know a fire department that endures the long hours (days and weeks) of hazardous arduous work that maybe result in prolonged health issues. Most “all risk” fire department stay in a station answering 90 plus per cent medical responses. Sure this service is vital to the people, no doubt. Wildland fire fighters don’t work a 56 hour work week. If you are a wildfire fire fighter you should be paid appropriately, as other fire service employees
Same thing. Different year. Seen too many times before.
USA needs a National Wildland Fire and Aviation Agency. Separate from land management. An agency that can respond to requests from the land managers with prescribed burning, fuels treatment and suppression. Send us a bill for what ya need. Or can they even figure that out. Who knows.
An agency led by people experienced in wildland fire and aviation.
Would a non experienced engineer led the rebuilding of a large tower or bridge? I doubt it. So why do non experienced people lead the forest service overseeing wildland fire and aviation? Because they have an education and we don’t?? I don’t know maybe you do?
It’s nice to see that the message has gotten to the top: Secretary Vilsack and President Biden. That’s something that hasn’t happened before, and it didn’t necessarily happen because the agencies got the message there. Pressure from Grassroots Wildland Firefighters working directly with media and legislators is what has pressured and enabled this change in language.
We’ll see what happens with the Infrastructure bill next, with more legislation hopefully to come. Words have meaning, but they need to be backed up with action. The relevant players have been informed and I’m confident meaningful action will come and keep coming as long as we keep advocating.
1) Federal fire fighter salaries need a substantial boost in pay.
2) State of California needs to place a ten year contract for air tanker(s) with a nominal load of 18,000gallons.
3) Update the 1970 MAFFs systems. A new system that will deliver 5000 U.S. gallons. i.e. C 17.
Good start John !
Also need to start listing them as “firefighters “ and not Forest tech’s !!!! This would tremendously help the survivors of LODD ‘s !!!
Then rewrite the ancient Fire policies of the FS ! Which would include rules for full suppression during times of drought !
Good to see your still active John !
Hmmm, nominal load of 18k gallons. The leaves 3 types of aircraft capable of that. A C-5, C-17, and a 747. Given that there is likely no MAFF’s units going to be developed for that capacity any time soon, that eliminates the state from somehow procuring either of the military cargo planes. That leaves the 747’s. My question becomes, what will the costs be under a ten year contract to make the 747 both lucrative for a contractor and cost effective for tax payers? Given that the GST was not the right tool in many mountain flying situations, would we just force its use even if its drops are ineffective, just to make it look like the size matter? People really need to get over the eye candy of the 747 coming to the rescue.
When it comes to the costs for all the technical needs and planes, boots on the ground and every BIT of necessity’s that the crews need to save our lives and homes?
Who can put a price on that?
OH? the politics that have no clue what it is like to run for your life and leave your home to burn. Lets save a dollar and IGNORE PREVENTION.
Yea, pay me now or pay me later. Paying later has resulted in destruction loss of life and devastation.
I have worked government for 38 years and I have seen how priorities have been redirected for stupid reasons. Resources diminished to the point in time we are experiencing now. Sad administrative failures in the management of our lands.
NOTE: To all those that have risked their lives fighting these fires for a “pittance” of compensation? We are crazy GREATFUL for all you do. There really is no measure of how GREATFUL we are that you put yourselves in harms way to save what we cherish daily. KUDOS Fire Crews, AMAZING!
(Now Fire Management and Politicians get your house in order)
Unfortunately your wrong on several points. Take a look at U.T footage of the 747 working fires. Ask a ATGS or ASM their thoughts on the 747? The River Fire in Nevada County, Ca was an excellent example of air tanker use.
You have an evolving threatening wild fire and need to start dropping on a flank. Six 3000 gallon drops or one 18000 gallon drop with excellent coverage. These are different times in wildfire suppression.
So What went wrong on the Dixie Fire?
Tamarack Fire. Tamarack was the same disaster repeated from 1987, Acorn Fire. Repeat of lack of Forest Management.
and response protocol.
NO fault of those that responded. They were just the boots on the ground taking direction from management that had no clue the daily weather conditions (wind).
The local volunteer fire crew knew what to do. Go up and put the tiny fire out.
So be it. They were told to STAND DOWN. We cant’ change what burned then.
Use History to stop repeating itself.
All the talk about the C17 and C5…..
Maybe Ma Blue has the ability to tank it’s own ships….maybe it’ll be private industry in conjunction w AF to direct the resource such as the C17 for wildland fire. Better ask the Combatant Commanders about how they feel who are doing Worldwide Mobility.
Might also want to ask the owners and the mechanics who hold the AFSC about availability of the ship due to MX and again, Worldwide Mobility on parts waits either in the hangar or AOG.
2002 I remember loading up the last of our AH1 Cobras…..C5 developed a hydraulic leak….waited for nearly 2-3 weeks for part prior to it’s departure to FT Drum
Pray for a C5…..unless you know better, it may not be a ship for the wildland fire world for quite awhile…
This is the consequence of having those at the top of the agency understate or not ask for what they really need for decades.
For what it’s worth, we’ve never fought fire on the cheap. Fire suppression has spent the FS into penury and degraded our entire resource management echelon to fund it. Our short sighted emergency response fetish has crippled the mission. Our own “leadership” led us right into irrelevance that has lasted for decades. The Secretary and Congress have a big job ahead to maybe lead us back to an ability to make a difference on the ground. ‘Bout time.
I think we need just the opposite…less boots on the ground and more rapid response to fire-starts… using remote sensing for detecting; and helicopters, KC-135s and C130s for quick dousing. Sure air response like this is expensive, but I think far less expensive than tackling 1/4+ million acre out of control mega fires that destroy towns, people and habitat.
Umm, just curious what is your experience level on the ground doing initial attack?
Incident Meteorologist (IMET) for NWS.
Might try going out on IA with a crew for a season. It might inform your opinion of the need for boots on the ground, and the effectiveness of aircraft without said boots.
Ted, aircraft do not put out fires, it’s just not how it works.
What happens when conditions don’t allow for air response? High winds, dense smoke, etc. Do we just let the fire go until it improves? Here in northern California many of the fires end up with dense smoke trapped in mountain vallies that limit air attack resources.
It is refreshing to see an agency head come out and say they need more resources if the public wants them to do the job they are supposed to. Far too often in recent years the agency chiefs have submitted budgets they knew were inadequate into to appease their political overseers and then tried to defend the lowball budget. Chief Christiansen was the latest example of this.
Yes Bill and Ted, we need a large fleet of the 747s and nothing less. And they cant come quick enough.
I have to disagree…I cannot tell you how many times Ive heard air attack and helicopter pilots say how dead the line looks and then when we walk it it’s got heat all over it that needs to be secured.
Most ICs I know would not be willing to trust air attack and IR flights to dictate containment…however this depends on the fuel type…that might work just fine in grass and/or desert fuels but not in mixed con or pj. I’ve hiked many a “dead edge” so div can add black to the map…but it requires a lot of discretion to use air resources exclusively and at the end of the day the person with whom the buck stops on the incident will most likely want “boots on the ground” to make absolutely sure.
I R flights are being used to help us address problem areas near the line but the indicated heat on completed line can be well interior and/or no threat so those can be very misleading…again people hiking the fire give the IC reassurance that the line is solid and will hold.
If we were allowed to give div or ops a % of accuracy in our assessments of the line maybe they would be okay with air resources dousing a fire and calling it good. Lol jk imet!
I was referring to fire starts. Boots still needed to mop up after initial air attack, of course. Prefer 50 boots tramping down a small smoking incident than 5000 trying to put out a 500,ooo acre perimeter. Ultimately, we need to concentrate resources and technology stopping the monsters before they can breathe.
Just FYI- KC-135s haul Jet A for aerial refueling.
Sorry, I can’t stop laughing. Is the Forest Service in or out of the fire game? If you are a F.S. fire fighter at least a starting salary of GS 11 pay grade, or equivalent wage grade. This wage (start) to RISK your life fighting wild fires appears to be in line with other fire service agencies who do the same type of work, many times side by side. MAFF’s, great people with a strong dedication to service and country. The 1970 aerosol fire sprayers should be replaced with this centuries best aircraft i.e. (C 17 nominal 5000 gallon cap.) and a retardant application system that delivers a pattern wider than 30 feet. Three MAFFs parked “when needed” No comment? Gavin, should have stepped to the plate and made a 747 deal. Or better yet, provide an incentive to private operator to explore a 18,000 gallon tanker with a ten year State of Ca. contract. The way private tanker operators work, a mega tanker will be here by fire season 2023. Leave the certification and testing to the State and F.A.A. Finally let’s make sure we don’t open up the forests to RESPONSIBLE logging. Don’t even think about completing or developing (water storage) lakes and dams. Who wants to get the environmentalist on their bad side? (t&c)
This is how all Fed firefighting (USFS, BLM, NPS, etc) agencies work. Skimp here and there “doing the best with what we have.” Supervisors are too scared to “overspend”. If they responsibly spent money to paint an accurate picture of what it would cost to operate a fully stuffed fire management program maybe the DC folks would get them more funds. Instead we’d arrive at large incidents with garbage bags of broken equipment to swap in supply (illegal by the way). The USFS banks on 25%+ of their employees base salaries being covered by large incidents not the district’s budget. If that doesn’t happen the operating budget can’t cover the differenceand they go into the red. Constantly robbing Peter to pay Paul and leaving critical positions vacant just to save a few pennies. I’m glad this has come go bite them in the ass.
USFS changed its funding model two years ago. Unit don’t garner “savings” by sending employees off on fires, nor do they underplan employees in WorkPlan anymore hoping to make it up on fire because they’ve minimized use of WorkPlan.
They do when the national/regional budget lowballs salary costs for a given year. That is happening this year.
Gotta remember that everyone in both the USFS and USDI work for the Administration, who tell them how many $$ they can initially ask Congress to fund. Competition with Defense, Medicare, highways, schools, etc. It’s up to Congress to ask the tough “what if” questions and then add more $$ if they see fit, and then get the Prez to sign it. Suggest reading Jack Ward Thomas’ excellent memoir on being Chief. “The Journals of a Forest Service Chief”. Tough job in the best of times, tougher in bad fire years.
Haven’t read that one yet, but Forks In the Trail was pretty good. I’ll have to check it out.
http://jackwardthomas.com/books/