Forest Service Chief Randy Moore has released what has become in recent years an annual ritual, a Chief’s Letter of Intent.
This year’s version dated April 14 begins with a discussion about the 2021 fire year and the new emphasis on increasing hazardous fuels reduction work by two to four times current levels. (The full document is below.) Then he moved to other subjects.
Suppress, or not suppress fires
Tucked away in a paragraph about COVID is a sideways reference to fire suppression strategy: “Finite resources require making choices, including to commit firefighters only to operations where they have a high probability of success and can operate effectively with no exposure to unnecessary risk to meet reasonable objectives.” Three paragraphs later the Chief mentions “using fire on the landscape”, and then:
I recognize that can be controversial and cause concern. Therefore, we must have a clear understanding of when, where, how and under what conditions we use this tool. We do not have a “let it burn” policy. The Forest Service’s policy is that every fire receives a strategic, risk-based response, commensurate with the threats and opportunities, and uses the full spectrum of management actions, that consider fire and fuel conditions, weather, values at risk, and resources available and that is in alignment with the applicable Land and Resource Management Plan. Line officers approve decisions on strategies and Incident Commanders implement those through tactics in line with the conditions they are dealing with on each incident. We know the dynamic wildland fire environment requires the use of multiple suppression strategies on any incident; however, this year we will more clearly articulate how and when we specifically use fire for resource benefit. The Red Book will be updated to require that during National and/or Regional Preparedness Levels 4 and 5, when difficult trade-off decisions must be made in how to deploy scarce resources most effectively, Regional Forester approval will be required to use this fire management strategy. This is commensurate with Red Book prescribed fire direction during these periods.
Firefighter well-being
The letter from the Chief mentions that high stress working environments and extensive time away from families can affect a firefighter’s physical and psychological resilience.
To help address these very real problems, changes have been made to Chapter 7 of the 2022 Interagency Standards for Fire and Fire Aviation Operations (Red Book) that update work-rest guidelines to require three days of rest for every 14 days worked, excluding travel days, upon return to their home unit.
Pay and a firefighter job series
The paragraph about work-rest guidelines ends with two sentences about firefighter pay and a job series:
Work is also ongoing with the Department of the Interior and the Office of Personnel Management to develop a wildland firefighter series and improve pay parity to better recognize the value of the work done by our wildland firefighters. We will continue to provide information on these efforts as they move forward and will engage with our wildland firefighters to ensure their voices are part of this work.
COVID
The Chief wrote that the Forest Service “will align our COVID-19 mitigation strategies with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention with respect to masks and testing of our firefighters.” There was no mention of requiring vaccinations. The text at the CDC link has statements such as, “Layered prevention strategies — like staying up to date on vaccines, screening testing, ventilation and wearing masks — can help limit severe disease and reduce the potential for strain on the healthcare system.”
The letter also says the FS will “continue with small, dispersed fire camps and remote incident management.”
Our take
With difficulties in hiring and retention, and the consumer price index rising by 8.5% over the past 12 months — the largest inflation surge in 40 years — a much broader discussion about pay and a growing unease and dissatisfaction in the firefighter ranks should have been job number one in the Intent letter. Thought should have been given to addressing the inability to fill jobs, skilled firefighters resigning, and positions being vacant for years. Some firefighters are considering this year to be a put up or shut up moment. For them it is important to know exactly where the Chief of the Forest Service, the Office of Personnel Management, and the Administration stand on allowing firefighters to earn a living wage, and what, if any, progress has been made to fix these issues. An honest Report on Conditions is needed — now. This letter, which is meant to be distributed down to the lowest levels, was a squandered opportunity. Maybe these problems have been addressed in another venue, but in this widely circulated missive, just quickly glossing over matters that are critical to the workforce, was a mistake.
In an April 5 hearing before a congressional committee, USFS Deputy Chief of State and Private Forestry Jaelith Hall-Rivera said, “I do think we are on pace [to meet the hiring goal of increasing the number of USFS firefighters by 1,300]. We are seeing a very high acceptance rate in our permanent and seasonal permanent firefighting positions.” Maybe Chief Moore is receiving similar rosy information about the state of his workforce.
[pdf-embedder url=”https://wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Chiefs-Letter-of-Intent-for-Wildfire-2022.pdf” title=”Forest Service Chief’s Letter of Intent for Wildfire – 2022″]
Thanks Morgan,
I’ve been saying it for years, the biggest problem the USFS and other fire agencies have right now is that people know the truth, and can Google it. You want to start at $15/hour and 15 years later climb up to $20/hour?
You would literally have to have no morals to recruit for the federal agencies as it stands today.
Thank you, Ben.
Appreciate the work going on. Cheers.
Hi…. Morgan Thomsen, 20th year in fire, mostly crews and engines. Currently DIV trainee and feel pretty good about it as my glass ceiling. I supervise a small crew doing what would be classified as mostly fire use but it is not a WFM. I doubt I am the anywhere near the best or worst firefighter ever. Also, I am not a firefighter. I am a supervisory forestry technician. To my knowledge, I have never known or worked with any wildland firefighters on any wildland fires. I have only performed the collateral wildland firefighting duties required of a forestry technician with others doing the same thing. Up to 1000 hours per season in overtime. At my prime, I could do up to 22 pullups and run a 9 minute mile and a half. I cannot do that currently and probably will continue to not be able to. I have not read Jumping Fire. I know of it. Those are my credentials.
So, speaking only for myself, it really isn’t just the lack of parity with pay and cost of living. Although, it wouldn’t take a lot of very complicated graphs to show that they have fallen further apart from each other. So, my attitude in say, 2005 when I got my perm was probably a little different in that regard. So maybe my perspective on that might not be chronologically relevant. Nudge nudge. Nor would I have even had the option of making similar starting wages at McDonald’s. Because that also wasn’t a thing. So my own experience back in time was different than my experience is now. Not sure how to more clearly point that out?
Anyways…. Most of my job now, aside from the collateral fire gig is not doing any sort of forestry work. Most of my job now is doing a job that someone else did before they centralized HR. Most of my time, when I am not literally enagaged in some sort of wildfire emergency or rx *not* wildfire is trying to navigate a new system designed to make my entire day as frustrating and mind numbing as possible. I will not bore anyone with the requirements for maintaining a purchase card, or the process of hiring employees, or the process of onboarding employees, or the process of whatever else, but there are a lot of these processes that were just not a part of this job before. The sort of work that is pretty much the exact opposite of anything I did when I started. It’s not really very appealing at all to any new perm watching me do what they will have in store for them when they finally become important enough to be surgically implanted to their pc or laptop so they can do someone else’s job.
On top of this bizarre real-life firefighter version of “The Office”, there are the new reports on what large particles do to people’s lungs. Which is one of those things I honestly can say I really didn’t sign up for. So, now it becomes more of a toss up between McDonald’s and maybe obesity? Or a staggering increase in lung cancer risk and heart disease. I guess neither seem that great but McDonald’s has more reliably good food? More RX means sucking more smoke, with no H. Cool. The “kids” these days can google this stuff by the way. That is another new thing. Which makes selling them a broken washing machine a lot harder.
As far as the letter, if I understand it correctly, a line officer will develop strategies for an IC who will develop tactics? Something like that. Hopefully, the delegation of authority letter is worded to reflect that, I would love to have less culpability as an IC and it sounds like in practice, I will! Will said line officer have a more limited telework agreement or are we going to be doing it over teams? No, it’s all good. Whatever. I don’t remember what else I had to say about it. Either they pay more and start sorting out schedules better or that’s it. No workforce, good or bad reasons is no workforce. There is a huge deficit in single resource to TFLD level this year. We need perms to stick around, those aren’t quick quals, especially on forests without enough training slots. There you go.
To All, Lots of comments here, some helpful, some not so much, others not at all. I think it would be better if people put down their REAL NAMES and list their expericnce. It could be done briefly. As it is, with all these cute tags like smokejumper bro, Peace Out, Sagebrush, etc., and no mention of length and breath of experience it’s hard to weigh the value of each comment. I would certainly value the input of a 25 year veteran over a two year person. If what you believe in is important enough, think about putting your name to it.
Murry A. Taylor – Author Jumping Fire
That would be nice but unfortunately retaliation / reprisal is real for current employees no matter what anyone says. Take a look at the article 2 above this one. For people to openly voice concerns and offer thoughts and opinions it can easily cause one to be fired. It’s the world we sadly live in.
Look at all these old farts telling the new kids “if you don’t like it, quit! Stop whining about the money!”
When adjusted for inflation, those boomers made about 2-3x what a current hotshot does.
There’s a reason we’re pissed, grampa.
Hey Rick M. I wish you the very best, I 100% agree with all that you have said, they certainly got our best years didn’t they……I am very sorry to hear about your health issues……every day is a blessing to be sure. I/We do not really mettle in the fire business per say these days, it’s nice to just have a platform to voice our opinions once in a while, last time I checked most everyone has an opinion. After 38 years there will always be a apart of me that misses some of it, only a small part…..lol….Again all the best Rick…….
The Forest Service is weak. The contractors will be taking over soon. Fire will be contracted to Cal Fire. Get out while you can.
My last comment here. I mean no derogatory comment or thoughts towards anyone of you. Each and everyone has to decide for themselves what they want to do or how you want to proceed to try and make the best of what the fire world should be. Some of you can come down on me hard because you dont think that serving the fire community as an AD after 30 years of regular fire time/work isnt a good foundation, to that, I’m sorry that you feel that way.
My bottom line comments that I have tried to bring forward for many of you to think about is because I tried like many of you to try and get improvement in many things and when your supervisor, District Ranger, Field Office Manager or State Director put reprimands in your OPF and you get bastardized by even the best of supposed FMO’s for your wanting to try and progress and make the fire programs work even better, you get tired after a while of trying to beat goliath and you then just try to train others behind you to do a better job and try to keep their butts our of the dog house to which I was put in several times.
Did I shut up, not at first, but, finally just as I stepped down with my retirement in 2005, I made one last push and got out. But, then I went on to serve another 11+ years as an AD and did I shut up then – NO. Did it get me anywhere on pay, respect or anything else? Nope and the AD program just like all of you is still fighting for respect, appropriate pay, time off etc. The same as you. And, all through my time working in fire until I had to finally retire due to health related issues, pulmonary fibrosis, multiple failed knee replacements, chronic pain syndrome, and yes many of them were related to fire but, we could not prove it to get coverage, so I am left sitting here with oxygen 24/7 reading many comments about just up n quitting.
So, am I going to try and drag all of you down for what your trying to do? Nope. I am just trying to tell you that fighting the giant organization known as the Forest Service or the BLM or on and on and on, it’s not going to happen overnight and as I have already said, I didnt get anything really done in my 45+ years doing fire, so if you think you can get it done after just a few years of fire, please just think about it. And if you can quit this job and get another one for better pay, time off, etc etc, then do it and dont look back. Otherwise, I just am hoping that things are not going to change just because you want it to, it takes eternity to get change done.
Oh, and one last thing. On my very first fire folks, I lost 3 crew members and I was helivacted out of the fire as it ran over my crew. This was on the Cart Creek Fire in 1977. So dont tell me that I have no respect for what is going on. I have lived with that fatal day every day since that fire and it will go down in my memory and yes my PTSD the day i die.
So good luck to you all, but, time will get most of you before your gonna see things really change as you want. Just think long and hard at what some are thinking about doing before you do it.
I very much respect the Feedback provided by working fire-fighters, whether it’s the Most Grim kind of feedback that occurred in November 2017, with the Death of Captain Ryan Mitchell.
Or the also Grim fact of Highly Qualified Personnel leaving the Profession because they are poorly treated, and grossly underpaid.
Is there a way to Quantify what Effect this has on Fire Response – to Larger Fires ?
What would happen if we had another July 2018 Redding fire under these Personnel Attrition circumstance ?
I have a feeling that the answer depends a lot on what other fires may be burning at the same time.
In Southwest Oregon we had a case last summer where a woman was walking along a country road throwing lit matches into the forest, starting numerous spot fires.
The news is also full of descriptions of small fires that started at homeless encampments, and were put out by local fire departments.
I see no group activity dedicated to reducing the number of Fire Starts, combined with a Higher CO2 level each year, which tends to send plants growing energetically … till they run out of water and become Fire Fuel.
No Reduction in Fire Starts + More Dry Fuel in the May-through-December time-frame + a Tattered Fabric in the fire-fighting Community =
Well if there was a Board Game called “Wildfire”, that combination of circumstances would tend to lead towards a More Serious fire year.
Qualitatively and Subjectively, it does seem like we are headed for ever more serious Fire-related Cluster F-cks.
I cannot believe all of this commentary surrounding the chiefs letter of intent. Each year we all so blindly print and display this letter in our peoples personnel folders for a one day inspection, done by mostly unqualified individuals who mostly don’t care. Its the same lip service letter we’ve seen every year… “we will only commit firefighters to….” (should say) anything and everything for any reason as deemed necessary for public perception, overtime or cost savings. Next.
The “back in my day” or “homie this is my day” talk goes in every profession and passes through every generation. Unless you wore homemade moccasins (or none) to the fireline and scraped line with an animal bone, nobody cares.
Truth is, good people left the firefight in your day. Great people are leaving now. Its up to us, all of us, to attempt to retain those we have trained, mentored and developed. “If you don’t like it leave” has worked forever. Its a proven tactic. We’ve been our own worst recruiters and reenlistment specialists. This rhetoric has led to far too many great firefighters looking in the mirror and saying….copy, I don’t like it, I am leaving.
Lead, motivate and inspire our people to stay the course. Stay FED.
To those of you leaving, we will miss you. You have served with pride and I am sure you did the job well. There is always an open application to come back and you should be well qualified. We will find you on “the list.”
Y’all keep fighting… you’re making us wilderness and rec folks look real good.
Teamwork. Community. Service. Resource.
Everybody is still expendable today in the eyes of the government . Military, definitely. FS, BLM BIA, NPS, definitely. There are certain criteria that keeps the real commanders from hearing all the small stuff. I would say chain of command for one. It goes up the ladder and gets handed off to a human resource specialist or sometimes not at all. Then isn’t brought back down to the personnel with a resolution. If you try to get your personal issues heard by, say a Washington chief, this would first be covered by their aids and then all your information would be put into a little sentence that they could understand from aid that knows absolutely nothing about wild land fire. The same with the military, there is no way your complaints reach the high brass, you will not get heard. Unless a few thousand people complain, say burning waste piles, living in contaminated areas, agent orange, just a few. It took the military a long time to admit to these while people died. Sorry to say wild land firefighters, I would say they are still sending you to smoke filled areas, which are really bad for your health. You breath in chemicals from houses, cars, sheds, grass, trees, along with who knows what else. Nobody cares in the fire world because they have you do it, nobody cares in the Washington level as long as you get it done. They say they do, but they are reading edited material from folks who don’t know the fire environment. Yet, you will not be heard. Yes, you still are expendable. I am glad there is place for opinions like this one, and that was mine.
It has never been easy – this job as a Wildland firefighter. Title be what ya want. Job is still the same. Never for the money. Back when- we didn’t have this social media to post our concerns. We just endured. Good bad or indifferent. Times have changed. Go forth and do good but always remember the greatest sacrifices you remember are the ones you choose.
It’s all good, I know the hardships you all have to endure, I sacrificed much with my time in fire, it was a choice, and yes I truly hated to see our fine FF’s leave for better paying jobs, but I never once blamed them, some of these guy’s are now Chiefs in big departments. I even thought about jumping to Cal Fire at one time.
Hang in there you are needed and for the most part you are appreciated, the big green machine is a huge bureaucracy, it’s took 100+ years to have made the progress we have made.
I remember having discussions/arguments with the old timers, old school vs. new ie. why do we cut 12 and 4, when what we really need is just enough to hold the fire, old school answer is just because, well for folks like me that was a terrible answer. So we changed it, just like you will change it.
Stand hard on Duty-Respect-Integrity and you will never go wrong…..All the very best…..Peace…….
OK. I wasn’t going to say anything, but COME ON!!! We did speak up and THEY FIRED US!!! I was doing 5 people’s jobs and it’s been 3 1/2 years and they still haven’t filled my position or the 4 other positions that I was doing! If you look me up on the contact list, my name, position, and phone number is still there. Seriously, y’all are retired! You get paid by the people you are complaining about. While the rest of the people who were fired don’t get a salary, don’t get healthcare, don’t get retirement. So, it’s easy for the people who are retire to say stand up, but if you are working for the NPS/FS there is still a real danger that you will get fired or physically attacked.
I just don’t want to get fired for not getting the shot. Is that too much to ask? Just heard some scuttle with courts, can’t wait to see what this will bring now…
Thank you for your service DRHS. You paved the way.
I was going to shut up as I believe I have said enough BUT! Old Farts, what have we contributed in our careers, well to start with how bout inclusion, allowing folks to speak up, a culture that demands accountability from the team, AAR’s were never used, shut up and dig line, we will tell you when we think you need to know something…..shut up…..We worked hard to develop real FF equipment…..Duty Rsepect Integrity, real meaningful leadership training that everyone benefits from. We did not put up with the whining ?????, things have changed, when I was a kid on an USFS engine in so cal our job was to lay hose and lay it fast, aggressive IA, when I was a kid on a shot crew we cut line, 12 cut 4 scrape, I would come to work and ask the Forman every day, what are we doing today knowing it would be the same answer as the day before, ” today we are going to get hard like Woodpecker lips” meaning a big PT day, run hike lay hose for fun and just for giggles cut a little line. Times are changing and not for the better, I have only been retired for a little over two years so I can say this, and yes I hope that a few will be just like me, because I wanted to be just like those that raised me in fire….real mentors….
Duty-Respect-Integrity, you need to show a little respect to those that have come before you (Old Farts) straight out disrespectful……it’s your turn to make some positive changes, because right now your riding our coat tails..Get Off….lol…..
DRHS,
You’re right- I ought to have shown a little more respect in my comment, and yours opinion was well spoken earlier in this thread.
You’re also right to point out the many accomplishments of the old generation making the wildland fire service a first rate organization. But it’s in decline for the reasons discussed here, and as one other poster said, people ARE quitting and going to work at McDonalds (or literally anywhere else) because it’s not 1995 anymore and a completely normal American life costs money that this vocation does not necessarily provide in exchange for demands which it does not fully compensate for.
If you see disrespect, it is because what I see is a bunch of folks throwing stones at a movement which appears to be making slow, but meaningful change. Those same folks would do better to step out of the way, cause many of them have done their part already and you’re right – this new generation has work ahead of it. “Things will never change” and “you’re all replaceable” is unhelpful at best.
Have a good night- I don’t think you’re the problem and there really isn’t one anyway, we’re not gonna solve or hurt anything in this comment section. But things do get heated.
So, one question. Why don’t you guys go work at McDonald’s? About the same pay, more days off, prolly get benefits….the answer is you don’t want to. Same thing applies to wildland. Nobody drafted you into wildland. We know what we were getting ourselves into. Everyone is complaining about a change because its what we “think” we deserve based on our personal life choices. Nobody made you start a family or apply for jobs that you knew wouldn’t pay the bills. Now dont get me wrong. There needs to be some changes. But the federal government doesn’t do anything over night. Stick it out or move on. Not a huge deal either way. Will we miss the experience? Ya, but others will step up to the plate. We shouldn’t be doing this because of what they pay or how many days we get off. Its public service. We do it for everyone else just like the firefighters before us. Never forget that.
That’s the problem…THEY ARE LEAVING. And no there are not people to step up. They are working at McDonalds because it pays more and takes care of employees. The people who do stay are now picking up the slack and doing more and more taking them to a breaking point. It’s a compounding situation. It’s very apparent by these comments that the folks writing them are not in the business currently.
“Why don’t you guys go work at McDonald’s?”
A lot do (or tree service, municipal departments, construction, etc) and that’s why so many engines are at most 5-day effective and a bunch of nominal hotshot crews can’t hold on to type 1 status or in some cases even fill two buggies, etc.
No there won’t be someone to take my job. You old timers just do not get it. Things are much different. It started 5-6 years ago with alarmingly high turnover. At first there were people who wanted the jobs. Maybe even happy to get the promotion faster than expected. Then even more left. Now there isn’t enough retention to backfill any of the jobs. Half of the desks at my station are empty. We have three captain jobs and four assistant captain jobs that have sat open for more than a year. We try to hire them but no one applies. Not a single person. People used to retire as captains. Now very few last 24 months in the job. We’ll have $1.5 million of unstaffed apparatus sitting in a garage all summer long.
We’re seeing the results of the Rick and DRHS era of “if you don’t like it then leave.” Well guess what? Most listened to your advice and did. Eventually there isn’t anyone waiting to have that job. It just sits open and the program starts to fail.
I’ll poke my nose in here. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. If you don’t like the job, go do something else. That said, yes, some things need to be improved, but it’s always been that way (Rick). There have been gaps in the past, and even more now. Maybe that’s incentive for the Feds to do something different, I don’t know. But, as was said before, wait around and see (and help in the process?) or move on. No one makes you do the work you do, most do it for other reasons. Quit throwing stones at the ones who came before you, we enjoyed the job and made it work for us. All we’re saying is be a part of the solution, or enjoy the job for what it is, or move on.
And remember, MOST of you only work this 14 on, 2 off (3 now?) 3-4 months out of the year, at best. And MOST of you out on fires, don’t bust your backs 16 hours a day, 14 straight days, so give us a break. If you’re one of the few and far between that do, you must love it for the work, or you would have left already.
Vet/FF/Father, no one is stepping up to the plate, that’s the issue. Why risk your life and health when you can make more money at McDonald’s…”We shouldn’t be doing this because of what they pay us or how many days we get off..” Do you pay your bills with this nonsense or do you have a trust fund? FOH with this.
Well when I worked for the state of Idaho for $11 an hour with zero benefits, zero hazard pay, we always had a full roster. And now that I no longer work there, guess what? They still got a full roster. People step up constantly. When I volunteered for the local FD in the off season making a dollar an hour running 800 calls annually for 2 Square miles, with no benefits. Guess what, people stepped up. For your second question, no, no trust fund here. I just choose to live within my means. If my paycheck doesn’t support something, I dont do it. I dont have to make large sacrifices either.
“BOISE, Idaho — Yet another state agency is facing staffing challenges and drought conditions aren’t helping….”
“‘Unfortunately with market conditions as you can imagine, it’s difficult to compete in terms of compensation when we hire those folks,’ Phillips said. ‘Right now with the roughly 250 folks we hire every year, after two seasons, 40% of those people do not return to work for idl. Fighting fires is very dangerous and when things go bad they go bad quickly and the difference between life and death comes down to experience.'”
http://www.kivitv.com/news/political/inside-the-statehouse/idl-asks-legislature-to-allow-hazard-pay-for-its-wildland-firefighters
Since I wasn’t specific enough. MY CREW had a full roster, and has had one every season since. Ya we got new folks. But the people with zero experience averaged 2-3 a season. We either had folks return or come over from other areas of the state.
Vet/FF/Father, I work for the Federal government and I can assure you that no one is stepping up. We have 2 engines that we can probably staff and our crew will be in T2IA status for who knows how long. Maybe you can live for $11 dollars in Idaho (and that’s doubtful these days unless you have your singlewide paid off) but that’s not the case in the rest of the Inter mountain west.
Just a thought, maybe you can’t get folks to step up or stay there because of your woe is me attitude. If you guys tell everyone how crappy something is, of course they won’t wanna work there. This stuff is only as good/bad as you make it. See here is part of the problem. I do the same job you guys do, but im the A hole because Im not right there with you moaning about how tough it is. We get to work in the woods. If this isn’t the coolest job out there i dont know what is. I’ve done other much higher paying jobs and still go back to fire. Appreciate the work you get to do and realize that although nobody says anything about it, its needed. If its not for you move on. Things will change eventually but even when they do folks are still gonna complain because thats the world we live in. And no, my “single wide” isn’t paid off. I rent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOvM2u8l64
Single Wide, I’m glad that works for you.
Some of us want to get paid for the professional jobs we do, commensurate with our experience. There comes a time when one requires more than a “cool job”- we have mortgages and random other bills to pay-and many of us don’t have extra…for extras. No one has to tell newbies how crappy it is because they figure it out for themselves pretty quick. Some of us have chosen to leave and some of us have chosen to stay and work to make things better for the people who’ll come after. Like you said, the jobs are needed.
So did you have a mortgage before you got in fire? Then you knew what it paid, why did you accept? Did you get it after? So you know how much you made and what would need to spend on the house. Part of the problem here is expecting the govt to give a crap about the decisions you guys make in your personal life. You guys really seem to fail to realize that your attitude makes a huge difference. Did you rookie knowing that it sucked? Then why did you come back a second, third, or how many years you’ve done. You guys chose to do this, and you knew what it paid and the benefits or lack there of. The govt is keeping up their end of the bargain, you guys are trying to change your side of things. It will get better eventually. If you don’t wanna stick around for that than dont. WLF was here before you it will be here long after we are gone. You should be stoked their even trying to give you an extra day off. The standard has been 14 and 2. Now thats not good enough anymore. No changes they make will make people happy.
Some of the older timers here remind me of an engine that’s sprayed out the same smoke three times and still has tape on their tools. Maybe if you do another lap it’ll be out?
Do you really mean to tell me you’ve been watching this silly workforce management strategy unfold for an entire career and it never occurred to you that it wasn’t sustainable?
You mean you’ve been listening to people describe the retention problem for decades? And still you can’t see they were right all along as engines go unstaffed and type 2IA crews roll around for years with XYZ Hotshots painted on the buggies?
When you think your young guys are replaceable and they all bail at 7 seasons, when the baby comes or the mortgage payments start, eventually you wind up with a bunch of young guys and nobody left to lead them.
Luckily it’s not your problem anymore- thanks for a career well-spent getting paid from the neck down.
Before you guys starts wishing for things to be more like the military maybe you should work there or sign up for a tour, because it’s not for everyone. Not everyone gets the GI Bill, not everyone gets childcare, not everyone gets extra pay. You think it’s bad at the NPS/FS…if you can’t hack being away from your family for 14 days on a fire try 6 months – 4 years being shot at. Y’all wine about being assign in CA, try being assigned and not know where your going or how long you will be there. Fighting a fires and war are 2 different things. Both have trama, but even that’s different. Again, before you start wishing for things to be more like the military you might want to experience it for yourselves. Join the Army, Navy, Air Force or Marines. (I’m sure they’ll let you keep your beards – sarcasm!!!) And for all of those who have already served, thank you for your service.
Good points SR. Wannabee military? Sign up….many of served both in the military AND fire….our choice…we get Rick Martin and all the bitchin that goes on between the old guard and newer gen of fire…BUT some of us oldskis know that leadership is a skill based on skills and not computer based training. Plenty of admire and still work the fire side of things be it perm or AD and even then …the bitchin goes on about AD. Even us in the AD and Cooperators world have had to meet Fed reqs put on down by my generation. Yep its been tough work since I started at 6.36 /hr State rate and about 7.50 Fed rate in the 80s and 90s and I even realize the QOL …working from within, as all the old timers told me in that same period of time as I indicated, sure hasn’t worked….so when you hear those words…you can sure plan on another 20-50 yrs for change….Take Care of yourselves
Just wanted to share a quick thought from the tanker side of things that seems relevant to the issues these firefighters are facing. I’m looking at you Rick Martin.
The most pervasive attitude that saturated the tanker ranks way back when I started a few decades ago was, ” This is how it’s always been, why change now?” Pick any problem,(Safety, QOL, Pay, Training, etc…etc) and the response was always the same. More than a decade ago some people started to push back at this mantra and change started to happen, albeit, very slowly. Things are better now, but more work still needs to be done.
Change is slow, but it will never happen if you don’t start. That’s why I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for the men and women that are demanding change now, even if that means they have to do it while they are walking out the door with the hope that it will get better for those that remain.
“A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they shall never sit.”
-Greek Proverb
“Your complaining wont get you justice so you may as will accept it or quit.”
-Rick Martin
It’s not too late to start planting trees, Rick.
Fire is not war. Maybe if you are truly wearing blinders it is, as they apparently did during Rick and Old DHRS’s day.
In today’s world, fires are an easily plannable event. If it’s like war then support firefighters like we support troops: GI Bill, childcare, extra pay if married or have a family, hiring preference, etc…
But you old guys saying we need to burn out the few folks left, and make it so miserable we’ll never be able to recruit any new people is so short sighted.
Thank god you guys can’t make decisions anymore, but it’s clear you have trained too many people still in current leadership roles today.
“If it’s like war then support firefighters like we support troops: GI Bill, childcare, extra pay if married or have a family, hiring preference, etc…”
I definitely think that leaning into this model makes more sense than trying to fight fires Mon-Fri 9-5 within commuting distance of major population centers.
Housing is a big one here, too, and from what I understand it used to be a lot more common, at least in my area. Not just barracks, which we still have, but family housing for the perms.
Agree. Also, DHRS Rick and the like: KEEP YOUR MOUTHS out of the policy maker’s ears UNLESS you want to see things for what they are – and not what you thought or hoped them to be.
Be and ADVOCATE for your BROTHERS and SISTERS that are desperately trying to uphold the same VALUES that you worked for – and ARE GETTING SMACKED DOWN HARD.
You old farts should quit poking your noses in fire. I’m so glad you guys were so strong and way tougher then we are.(which I highly doubt) go fishing or see your kids, get off the damn phone, tablet or computer screen. I have never commented but read the comments and I decided to finally post something. Bitching and whining maybe but I am seeing more and more of it. If I do walk away the kids on my engine will have one 7 perm on the truck. That’s it. I have too much duty integrity and respect for that. Lace my boots, get off wildfire today and guess what I am at work this morning. Maybe when I’m 50+ and retired I will see my kids not post to young adults on wildfire today.
This is about the same story here too. If I walk away the temp appts will have one 7 perm on our truck. 14 seasons. Shame on the author of this letter and the leadership in the WO and REGION 4.
Yes, maybe you should have been a cowboy, it’s not to late….37$ is a real living wage…..
I think if I work 14 days away from my family it should be more than 3 days off, News flash we are not like most Americans, how many days off 4-6-8, what’s the magic number that is going to make every thing alright, with fewer resources available lets take critical resources out of the rotation for an extended period of time…..nonsense..Aughhhhhh!!! When you go to war there are no days off…..and fire season is a lot like war…..and we get R&R days….
When I started we had no work rest guidelines, it was torture to go 60 + days with out a day off at home….talk about PTSD…..a lot of us had it…….3-14 is good, if you need more ask your supervisor, towards the end of the season when my folks were running of fumes I would ask for more, I was never told no…
Gumby let’s stick to facts not rumors…..for obvious reasons…..folks are stressed enough….
It will get better….like I have said before money will not fix most of the issues…..it will help…….I hope the very best for all of you, I know its a tough job….beyond hard sometimes and it’s not for everyone….do what’s best for you and your family because at the end of the day that is the most important thing………
I officially declined the job. I could reapply but it’s just the point. I feel you and what you are saying about walking in the windy snow up hill both ways but I have also and I didn’t bitch or complain about it… I was a seasonal hotshot single and with out children and wife. I am trying to make this job work with a family and it clearly doesn’t.
Old DRHS, I have to agree with almost everything you said. I had 45 years of total service in after my original 30 years when I retired with my ff/le retirement in 2005. I agree with you, days off? What was that when I started? I never heard of that until the bean counters and whinners got really involved and couldnt stand the pressure of working at something we VOLUNTEER for. Yes I said Volunteer for. When we went into this job of firefighting, we knew that it was long hours, hard arduous work, and many days without seeing the family. Did that change somewhere? Or did I miss something? I dont think so.
I have told many people involved in fire, many of whom were within the AD ranks like I was for 11+ years that remember, we on our own accord decided to keep doing fires as an AD and now you want retirement pay, pay increases way over the COLA level and so much more? This goes to everyone who are whining now. If you dont like what you are doing and all you can do is complain, then quit and find a job that will pay you much more or just sit down and shut up because I have heard almost everything everyone on here is complaining about now for well over 50 years. Yes, that is a half century. And you think it’s gonna change now? What the FS Chief has said and what the BLM Director will come out with are nothing more than the corporate lines. Enough to keep them clean from any lawsuits and issues with parity, but, they will never ever go out on the limb and take any of this on if they think it may be challenged in court.
So, as I said, I agree with most of your post (99%) the other 1%, there’s no sense in commenting because it will never make a difference anyhow.
So, in culminating my comments, and many of you can jump all over me, but, remember this folks, it aint gonna change any time soon so if you think it will, quit and watch, there will be someone step into your job for the $$$ and they too will start to complain that this isnt what they signed up for. What in the hell did you think you signed up for? Just a though. Good luck to everyone and just one last thing. Your complaining wont get you justice so you may as will accept it or quit.
Risk Martin,
I always thought the AD program was part of the Old Grouchy Bastards Retirement Program, and you sure have confirmed that.
Leaders don’t shut up and take it. They stand up and lead.
It looks like you were a follower for 45+ years.
Yep I guess you nailed us, lol. But the stats have it that if it werent but for the AD program, the fire program would sink and not be able to function. Go look at the number of AD’s that are on IMTs and on fire rosters around the country. A good number of you guys today who are in fire want nothing to do with any of the numerous positions in fire except “on the line”. Many think ist below your status to work in anything but line jobs. Well, if it werent for your support AD folks, you wouldnt get near what you have or need. So, yep, you nailed us but we arent going away anytime soon so just live with that 🙂
Rick Martin
The problem with the AD program is that many ADs refuse to mentor trainees. I’ve seen pure on refuse to have a trainee work with them. Wonder why? Can’t stand someone taking your AD retirement away? Busting up that good old boy network?
My solution has been to pull sponsorship from any ADs that refuse to have a trainee.
Oh, and most teams are made up of municipal fire department folks. Take a look at the rosters ……………………so don’t act like you’re the glue holding the wrinkle old fabric together.
Well, I dont disagree on not having trainees with a good many AD’s. And yes many of them are just that, that they will loose their purse. As for me, I will tell you that on every assignment that I had as an AD in logistics, I always took a trainee. I found that if you were willing to train other agency folks in what you were doing, that the IMT’s or other team members were much more adaptable to having you back to serve with them. So, please dont include me in that list because like I said, I always had a trainee.
As for the makeup of teams, Im not sure where your from, but, a good number of team members on the main rosters are agency folk, but, when they become dispatched to an incident, many of the rostered people dont make it and then that is when the majority of AD’s are picked up. They are on the alternate hire lists sitting around in agency folks pockets that have worked together before and generally are name requested. And, in the Great Basin, very few cooperators are and never have been the greatest makeup of teams. Cooperators just wasnt and still isnt high on the priority list and its more focused on agency folks in trainee positions or agency hire lists. Most of what I believe you are looking at is out of Region 5 where a good many, probably majority of the team members are or have been cooperators. This varies from region to region depending on sponsorship of the teams etc. So you are wrong but right too. It cant be said straight across the system that the majority are cooperators.
So, yes, bottom line, I agree 100% that a good many AD’s dont take or use trainees and some never unless forced to by the team they are on, but, remember too, many AD’s have the quals to be Section Leads and thus work directly for the IC and if they all get along, they let the section chiefs do their thing and dont interfere so that is one huge reason that many ADs dont have trainees, because of the philosophy of the section chief.
“You’ll see these men on the corner, “hell, I worked HARD all my life!” (they think this is a virtue, but it only proves a man is a damn fool.)”
Ya back in my day we didn’t care about good leadership and our families. What’s wrong with todays youngsters? Crazy!
OLDDRHS,
It’s folks like you that ruined this agency.
“War”, gimme a f*^%* break! ?
Huge Disconnect. GS6 here on his last season and it looks like I am hanging up the boots this fall. I might just resign Monday. I seriously don’t care any more about the mission at hand when the stress of the real world and my finances or lack of over shadow it. I had my second child, live over 70 miles from my duty station and have to stay up there. When do I see my family? I was entitled this FMLA and then told I need to come up with a schedule that works for the district but I can’t afford driving 150 miles to and from multiply times a week. I was offered an entry level job this winter with a good company at 37$ an hour… that’s entry level. I turned it down because of this infrastructure BS and now look at me wanting to print the letter I wrote last fall and officially resign.
Affirm! same story here. GS-8 17 years in and on my way out for the same reasons. With kids this job just doesn’t work and there is no attempt to even help. Just talk…Ya paid parental leave FMLA is a joke in FS Fire as they illegally make you work anyway because no one else can cover what needs to be done…there is no one else!
Are you union? That’s not how FMLA is supposed to work. You’re entitled to take it all as a lump sum, and if you don’t, you should definitely have union involved in negotiating terms.
I just don’t want to ruffle feathers. I know the situation with staffing on the ground and me taking leave isn’t the answer either.
You can’t blame the government for you living so far away from your work station … that one is on you imo.
I don’t blame the government for not being to afford one…. Wait a sec
I think if I work 14 days away from my family it should be more than 3 days off. Most Americans work 5 (8-hour) days and get 2 days off. And they are able to leave work early or respond to a family emergency.
They need to rewrite this stuff from the ground up, not just take the broken model and add a small bandaid.
Exactly. This is why I frequently use LWOS (Leave Without Say).
Jumper Bro, If you want to spend more time with your family then do it. If you want to be a smokejumper then do that. But it’s hard to have both. Always has been. I don’t think smokejumping should be designed and implemented to meet your personal needs in life. It’s job with its own objectives and that’s to save wildlands from fire.
Murry Taylor Author of Jumping Fire
Randy Moore said in his Chief letter- “Line officers approve decisions on strategies and Incident Commanders implement those through tactics in line with the conditions they are dealing with on each incident.” OMG- no wonder USFS is a Disaster! Line Officers at the Helm! Help us! (Forestry techs) But yet they have the power. We are helpless- The forestry technicians who are really Wildland firefighters- have no say at the SO, RO, WO. SILENCED BY THE LINE OFFICER AT EVEEY LEVEL!!!
Here in lines the problem. Can we get a US National Wildland Fire Service?
R2 FFMO meeting was held yesterday. The rumor going around is that we (firefighters GS-9 and lower) will only be seeing the equivalent of a one GS level increase. And that in order to achieve to that $20,000 dollar increase mentioned in the bill, 13/13s will just be converted to 18/8 or PFT, problem solved!
But don’t worry, GS-11’s and higher will probably see that $20,000 pay increase with a one GS level increase.
Again, this is a rumor, heard from a friend of a friend.
The BLMs senior fire leadership made it clear last week that all GS-9 firefighters and below will receive either a lump sum $20k check in July or will receive double pay until that $20k bonus is fulfilled. This also includes some support personnel including dispatchers.
Is this from Grants Fire Friday thing ? Thats not what I took from that .. keep hearing no backpay which is a total bummer … I hope it’s considered base pay – Thats KEY for retirement calculations
Is there a link to this?
https://youtu.be/78SaSEvd6hY
I will become the most insubordinate, sabotaging MF the agency has ever seen. Oh you need me to hold this side of the RX burn? OOooooopsy Daisy!!!!!
Blessures Graves, isn’t that illegal? Won’t you go to jail for that?
AR
How many Government employees are held responsible in today’s political atmosphere? If they are, who will be held accountable for not fulfilling the Infrastructure Law’s intent? Much less some low-grade GS employee who didn’t see a spot fire.
I would never do something or support an act, as Blessures Graves has stated, in fear of one of my coworkers being hurt or killed.
Big Fire Ball$, you make great points!
For what? Having terrible SA and not noticing a spot fire or slop? For stepping out of the smoke and, therefor, not seeing a control line breach? People go to jail for not paying attention now?
Then get out!!!! WTF
The lack of professionalism indicated by that comment is hopefully isolated, because if it isn’t it would suggest that wildland firefighters deserve less pay and benefits, not more. When you are an “insubordinate MF” and deliberately allow an rx fire to escape, it is not the policy makers that go up, it’s the wildlands, people’s homes, and so on. But you want to take it out on them? What are you going to do next? Threaten to hold your breath if you don’t get your way?
Pay parity ain’t happening. SSDD
Absolutely disconnected with reality.
I agree, completely disconnected. And going the wrong direction on top of that. Why in the hell have a fixed rule on work/rest ratio. Why have a fixed rule about the daily shift 19 and 16 rule? Change that and leave it up to the supervisors in charge. Some two week shifts wouldn’t need 3 days off. Others would. Some fires are lost due to dumb (fixed) rules about how much time a crew can put in in one day. If you don’t have enough people you can trust to make these decisions on the line, in the moment, then give up firefighting and let someone (other agency) do the job.
Murry Taylor. Author of Jumping Fire