We’re trying something new this weekend. Borrowing an idea from The War Zone, this post can serve as the beginning of an open thread where our readers can talk about what happened this week that we have or have not gotten into yet. This is literally an off-topic thread.
The usual rules about commenting apply. And in light of some recent topics, remember, no personal attacks.
So let’s enjoy a wide-ranging debate! (Oh, and send us pics of staging areas. Date, location, and photographer’s name would be nice , but not required.)
I don’t think there are just 2 options where one option is “be the change” and the other option is “like it or leave it”. We’re just making that up.
Pretend this job is a baked potato we all decided to make for dinner. Then a very small amount of people just ate it with no toppings. Then some people decided butter and salt was enough and then some people realized they could get some sour cream and bacon bits as well if they wanted to work for it. That is okay. It’s okay to eat it straight too, but…. Man…. It sure would taste pretty good with the bacon bits. So, if someone is actively working on getting the sour cream and bacon bits like Grassroots and NFFE and whomever else, then I don’t see anybody here turning it down. So why shouldn’t they try?
I am pretty sure that a lot of the upgrades we’ve already gotten. Like handcrew SQBs when we went from 5-6, the IHC upgrades, helitack, engines etc. came from some bottom -> up work and probably some griping. I know for sure some of the upgrades were. Starting out with PD audits and committee work and drudgery and no one who didn’t participate in the work demanded to stay in the lower GS PD if they had the option. If the Tim Hart Act actually passes, I doubt anyone is going to demand to stay in their old GS position on ethical grounds. Serious props if you really do have that conviction though. I don’t see anyone turning down the boot stipend because they don’t believe in entitlements.
So what are we debating? It can’t possibly be that simple.
I’m out if our CEO requires the jab again…isn’t that illegal? Oh wait just like the pay raise was illegal? Let’s just keep putting lipstick on this Pig!
On a previous article comments I listed some of the things I think the NPS/FS needs to change. One was the hiring process. I know this is a small one, but it’s a pet peeve and it might explain why people are not completing the application process at the NPS. I’m not sure how long they have been doing this, but the NPS requires an assessment test. It’s a personally test. Which is illegal. Violates TitlaVII. With that aside, it takes 3 hours and everytime you apply for a job you have to take it. I’ve taken it multiple times. It’s a waste of time. And what upsets me the most, it for a GS 4, 5, or 6. If the NPS is going to waste my time before I get the job…How are they going to treat me once I work there? I think things have changed for a lot of us because of COVID and I think it’s time for the NPS/FS to change as well. There was a time were people wanted to work for the NPS/FS, but that time is over. NPS/FS I hope you read all the comments on Wildfire Today and make the necessary changes to improve the NPS/FS, so people will be proud to work there.
Current Supervisor w/ 20 years FS, there is very little in your statement that I can disagree with, very articulate and well stated, I would say hang in there because things are going to get better and who knows they just may get better, but if history has taught us anything concerning how slowly the USFS changes in a positive direction then do not hold your breath. I thought that in my lifetime I would see re classification, better pay and heck portal to portal pay, we got our upgrades and that was great…..
Trust me when I say I was not always in lock step with all the nonsense, I was very outspoken against those things I disagreed with, very outspoken, my job was to take care of my folks as best as I could.
And yes I did ride for the brand, you bet I did, 100% All in, I could talk crap about the service, but you better not…..thats just how it was, that’s how I was brought up…..
I used to think if we want to see change then exercise your right to vote, it does not matter any more, it’s broken every where these days, nothing gets fixed……Aughhhhhhh!
Why is there not more coverage related to this escaped RX that caused so much destruction, seems like this should be a big deal, almost on the same scale as Cerro Grande……What’s Up!
Current Supervisor w/ 20 years FS, I wish you all the best, I think that you may be one of the changers that will be needed going forward…..Hang in there you are needed……Peace…..
Hermits Peak. How crazy is 19.6 million dollars spent on a prescribed fire that went out of control. 288 structures burned so far and still burning. The real amount of money will not be learned for a while, since there will definitely be claims against the Santa Fe FS for starting this fire. They have absolutely very little control of this fire as of today. I am sure it will get up to the billions of dollars once people start filing claims against the FS. You can’t just start another fire close to the other just to blame it on the prescribed fire. I hope those people know they can and will blame the Santa Fe FS for starting this fire on a drought stricken year. And in the spring when everyone in northern NM knows is always windy.
It’s possible that demanding a massive increase in RX fire without the appropriate means or conditions to implement it is not a very good idea.
Old DRHS,
It is a frog in a boiling pot thing though. I was pretty happy with pay 15 years ago, because of where it put me in relation to the cost of living and the relative pay in the private sector. The frog thing, does that make sense? You put a frog in a pot of cold water and turn on the burner and it boils to death because it doesn’t feel the heat slowly going up until it is too late. That frog is the agency I guess? It’s the cost of living. It isn’t grade level flat out, it is the buying power of the hourly wage compared to the costs of goods and services. If the grade schedule isn’t bumped enough to keep up with it, then the only other solution is increasing the grades of positions to band-aid it. It doesn’t mean that a GS7 right now has the same static buying power of 3 grades above a GS4 25 years ago. It might very mean that they have less buying power. They have increased grades and now the problem is they have a bunch of people at relatively high grades being supervised by people at the same grades.
They bumped type 1 WFM leaders up to 9s for example, since there is no grade stacking allowed, there are AFMOs that aren’t even supposed to be supervising them. They need a new scale adjusted to the cost of living now and they are going to need to be somewhat competitive with city FDs and Calfire etc. or it just isn’t going to work. They aren’t going to retain people. It should be somewhat evident when the president is raising the starting positions at the 3/4 level to even be on par with a lot of state minimum wages. GS 4s made more than minimum before. I mean a fair chunk more when I was a 4 in like 2004 or whatever.
You could either decide that the problem is that everyone who used to apply for firefighting jobs has the problem but I don’t think the data supports it. So ultimately either way, it doesn’t change the deficits in workforce and quals that are coming home to roost. I haven’t personally seen what I would consider a decrease in work ethic among starting firefighters. I just don’t. The agency you might be fond of remembering might just not be the same agency. It might just be the brand you liked. I am not retired, but I’m closer to that than starting out. I am in my 40s. Dunno what else to say.
Caveman,
That is just kind of messed up. I think there is a bit of a power struggle around the idea of fire sort of pulling away from line officers etc. fire is one of the few remaining sources of labor for an agency that keeps increasing targets. We’ve all seen the chief’s letter. He is trying to divide by zero in regards to the fuels goals I think. But I don’t know how much the WO or ROs can really prevent. Without getting into specifics, I’ve been involved in some dialogue with the RO where I am and they were saying stuff in draft letters that they would never be able to back up in practice. There is still the MA, FSH, CFRs and other assorted acronyms preventing them from doing whatever. It was just more that they were saying more ridiculous things and making non-credible statements. That is extremely frustrating that you were getting reprimanded. If you can get that stuff in writing, hang on to it, but I don’t know the context of your situation. I realize sometimes that isn’t feasible. Good work speaking up though. There is only so much sweeping under the rug that can happen with vacancies and I dunno how they are going to keep kicking that can down the road.
Supervisor w/20 -Yeah I actually don’t mind that much haha! I prefer knowing who stands where. I relate most of my questions to the fact that the failures in staffing are causing people to do a lot more. So I put in for cash awards/step increases for my guys. Which, for whatever reason really upsets the management types. I’ll find some other way to take care of my employees. It’s good to know the GS chasers that are all for progress until it’s time to suckle on the ranger/ forest supervisor’s teet and the ones that are beside us trying to help. Everyone else knows now too. The lines have been drawn unfortunately. Makes for fun teams meetings. I guess that’s part of trying to be a decent human being, standing up for your guys, and doing the right thing. If that’s makes people uncomfortable, it’s a good indicator of character.
I do enjoy my retirement very much….Thanks…..
I have been retired now for almost 3 yrs, I am sure that in 3 years not much has changed, I guess I have forgotten how bad the ASC is, it was horrible when I was a Supt, the last 15 years of my career was with the NPS, I suggest that you all give it a try, I know you will like it….a lot….
Trust me I know that it’s hard making a living, and with the way things are now in our country with Corporate America taking us for a ride…..it was not easy when I was a GS-3…it was hard…..yes you all need much better pay, heck much better every thing,,,,,you deserve it….I was a shot Forman as a GS-6 trying to raise babies……I know that you all deserve much more and I do hope you get it…..What is the hold up………
I have tremendous respect for all of our FF’s, I just have a different way of looking at things…..I am still very appreciative of the USFS/NPS for allowing me to have had the career I had, I raised our family on a FS salary and made a lot of sacrifices, and yes my kids still love me….I never thought the agency owed me more that what I earned……I know….is this guy for real….lol…..
Anachronistic-Had to look this up, I now have a new word in my limited vocabulary….next time just say what you mean….throw back…..Old School…….fossil…….Peace Out……
Hey Caveman,
Totally. Another skill the younger folks are exercising is that they are actually lobbying to shore up deficiencies the agency can’t sort out on their own. I’ve lobbied for the union before and it isn’t a simple thing to do, even with an established process and org, let alone starting your own activist group. They are getting policy changes to OWCP coverage. I’m actually floored by it. It was the field folks who started the process to get temp health insurance. No one would have even understood the first part of it when I started, these folks are educating themselves in some really convoluted policy and figuring out how to change things at the congressional level. Those are some legit skills. Anyone who was or is a WFF should be pumped about it. If WO and RO can’t figure it out or is providing half-measures and leading down in hamfisted mandates, then leading up like that is about all we got.
Yep I think half of them know policy better than me! The sad thing is that I have spoken to RO and WO people that straight up said we won’t be getting the bulk of the items that are in these bills. Have been reprimanded for asking questions about it to SO and rangers. There’s more people “of power” that are against us than with us.
Let’s not forget the non fire program leaders that I have had directly say “You really think you deserve to be paid that much?” Which resulted in a Stern talking to after my response. We used to be able to kind of ignore/shield ourselves from the idiocy of management but it seems like they are always popping up, having teams calls, etc. , seems like they are more a part of day to day work these days. Any of these retired folks that think there are tons of happy people in the FS fire branch haven’t had a BS session in a fire shop in the last couple years. I’d put it at a solid 95% disgruntled. That other 5% are retiring in a couple years or are one the turds in management that collects a check every two weeks and not much else.
And we’re not going to stop. The infrastructure pay raises and Wildland firefighter classification wasn’t something the agency lobbied for or even asked for. OWCP reforms we’re not asked for by the agency.
A bunch of retirees and GS5-7 firefighters are lobbying Congress and educating the workforce.
http://www.grassrootswildlandfirefighters.com
Ah the old “If your not happy leave man, there are tons of other jobs out there that you may be happy with….” crowd….yeah…so guess whats happening? In droves……..
CalFire and other agencies are loving this…getting experienced, trained, and highly qualified personnel and saving tons in their training budget….able to create a crew out of thin air, no building up. Contractors and electric companies reaping the benefit too. Glad OUR fed tax dollars paid and will continue to pay to build quality personnel for state agencies and private companies.
Just accepted a position for almost twice what I get now, more time off, year round, great retirement. Made sure I got some classes in before gave my notice. I spread the love and am taking 2 of my seasonals (1 long time temp 1 career) along with me. Hell they should let me take the engine too since its just gonna collect dust sitting unstaffed all year.
I am not real sure how many folks visit this site, one thing is certain once you start it’s hard to stop, the reason I bring this up is that we/us that visit this site may not be in the majority, at least consider it, a lot of the folks that visit this site project doom and gloom, I would venture to say there are a great many that are very happy with their lot in life/USFS/NPS. Anywhere outside of R-5 you can make a living.
To say the NPS/FS is broken is pure nonsense it’s not broken or at least completely broken…Middle management down to our module leaders and everything in-between are not broken, and to suggest otherwise is pure crap, these folks are doing a bang-up job leading our folks thru some very adverse times.
Maybe consider for a moment that this line of work is not for everyone, even those that are good at it may be in the wrong line of work.
When I was a kid starting out, I began with CDF then jumped to the FS, I recall working my a– off, just work, volunteer for every hour of OT I could get, never turn down an assignment, save every penny I could to put a down payment on a mobile home on a gov compound, man that was living….
I am tired of hearing how much things have changed, really…..there are more openings for work than people to do the work….https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/07/there-are-about-1-million-more-job-openings-than-people-looking-for-work.html
And all this talk about how skilled we are, that’s a crock, we are not skilled…just look up what a skilled worker looks like, its not an entry level FF….the skill comes years later when you become a tried and tested leader, FF is not brain surgery….not even close…..I know how dare I say such a thing…..when I started CDF they put thru a 4 week academy that barely equipped me to do the job, then I go to the FS and they give me 32 hours of basic training and then put me on a fire truck…..NOT SKILLED……it has not changed much today….Has it!
Find a few reasons to love your job or you will be miserable…..Oh and yes your pay raises will come……
Making a living outside of California isn’t as easy as you think Old DRHS. House prices have gone up in all the western states and frankly so has everything else. I was on a RX in my state of Utah last week and the main topics of dicussion were Rent/Home prices, Gas Prices and Food Prices. I wish making a living outside of California was attainable but sadly that just isn’t the truth anymore.
Take care of yourselves this summer my fellow Forestry Techs!
I am a GS-11 step 10 in a rural area and as a single income family, we get by with me working 500 or so hours of fire suppression OT. Our cars have over 150,000 miles on each and we live modestly.
It pains me to think about all the Forestry Technicians doing much harder and more responsible jobs than me and trying to get by on GS-5, 6,7 jobs. It’s rough and they are being jacked around.
Hiring across the Forest Service sucks, we can’t fill resource crew jobs – college graduates making fast food wages for technical/hard work. We cannot fill crews with flying jobs in October and hiring in February for May starts with no stability for those folks.
Purchasing, HR, and the increased work load with more funding without the experienced staff to implement has effects far beyond Fire folks. We are losing and will continue to lose.
I’ve been looking at changing jobs but without TOS and then limited relocation allowance will put me 10 to 20k in the hole for any move.
Forest Service is broken, been broken a long time, we limp along. Some units are better than others but my office basement floods with sewage every so often with no funds or plan to fix, we lack the vehicles to complete work, lack the staff and positions to keep up with ever increasing target, cannot retain seasonal folks or get young folks to make a career out of this work, etc.
Just look at the L-280 curriculum which has not been updated since the 90’s where the main book is a 80’s corporate leadership book. So much is old and broken and we limp along like it is ok because that is what we do.
Hopefully folks don’t read this and say f you GS-fantastic. I get it. I am here to support the cause of making things better.
Old DHRS,
I am a module supervisor for the FS. I have worked FS for 20 years now. You are making anachronistic statements. We were directed a couple years ago to have an 80/20 model workforce. Meaning we are supposed to have 80% perms on fire modules. These perms need gov laptops and credentialing and they need to navigate much more complex systems than they did 20 years ago when we had HR decentralized and hired off the hand filled bubble sheets. Entry level perms have to use a number of complicated and constantly changing admin systems to meet their obligations to HR etc. Those are skills, whether I think they are valuable skills is another matter.
We have a system as supervisors to maintain purchase cards that I am not even going to bother describing but it is absurd.
We didn’t hire a single entry level firefighter on my crew this year. We are still having to make time for the new perm hires to get everything set up to even meet the obligations the agency wants them to meet. Even getting the go-ahead for them to drive a gov vehicle is a huge process. We’re lucky if we have the onboarding and admin stuff even done in a month. HR gets confused and wants an ID sent to them 4 times. Every year the temps have to go through the background check system all over again, I was dealing with requests from security one year all the way into September. They were sending my employee angry emails threatening him to send in things we had already sent in. There is no point person anymore to coordinate this. It is all decentralized, so the employees are having to figure out these systems on their own.
I can confidently say we spend more time doing self service for HR than we do training people to fight fire. So, the comments you are making sound a bit like my dad telling me about walking through snow to get to the bus stop. He fought fire in the 60s by the way, my grandfather fought fire a generation before that. My mother was a firefighter and so was my sister and even my uncle did some seasonal work. It is not the same sport.
You are blatently ignoring the cost of living index which was helpfully posted on this website already. When you start making value judgements on the skills required to be an entry firefighter or their work ethic, you are making statements out of context.
I am not running a hotshot crew and we are still working 800-1000 hour seasons. My crew like many are doing collateral duties to keep our own duty station repaired. My father, when he left firefighting was a carpenter and handyman who would get hired by the local FS to fix the same things we are trying to fix on our own now. I have had to learn plumbing and basic electrician stuff because we can’t find someone to reliably do repairs on our guard station.
I really suggest that you at least get some frame of reference, based in what new and non-fire related skills the average entry level person is having to divert their time and potential time learning firefighting to having to do. This is becoming a less desirable career path. Most of the people who want to do fire are the polar opposite of people who want to sit in front of a laptop performing self-admin tasks. These duties are getting tacked onto the 1000 hours of overtime doing actual firefighting.
Seriously, if you want to have a discussion about your perception of the kids these days than you need to start from what the job is these days and you aren’t.
Current Supervisor w/ 20 years FS, I agree with you 100%!!!
I too get tired of hearing about “the good old days”. It doesn’t change where we are now and it certainly doesn’t help.
When I started over 20 years ago, we weren’t in the office either-we were out fighting fires. Now we’re saddled with no staff, a mountain of administrative tasks and we can’t afford to buy basic stuff much less “luxuries” like homes and maybe a pickup.
Give it a rest Old DHRS-go enjoy your retirement.
20 years in you are exactly right. Captain here with 15 years in myself. The amount of time that is spent on hr stuff seems to have doubled in the last 5 years. Due to HR screw ups I had employees starting over the course of 4 pay periods! Onboarding and hr work sucking time away from training, cohesion, and simply getting work done. As well as making my assistant and lead take on a ton of extra work while I am on the phone with ASC. Can’t get out of cell service or they’ll send you an email saying the incident was resolved and it wasn’t! Then you start all over. I hate doing it but I have to have the new guys deal with a lot of their own HR issues just to keep the whole module moving forward. So instead of going out with guys they sit in my office and make calls and wait for emails. If you’re lucky it’s just one day. Chances are it takes more.
If you haven’t been in the agency over the past 5 years and see the insanity get worse you have no clue. It’s not the same workplace anymore. You can talk about the old days all you want but I gaurantee if you came to work for a couple pay periods you would not recognize where you used to work.
Let’s for a second say we all agree that we are unskilled workers. The pay raises are justified by the exposure to hazards, obstacles to personal life, and the insane cost of living everywhere. And let’s not forget… qualifications aren’t tied to gs levels. A gs 6 snokejumper just might be a qualified Type 3 IC. Maybe they deserve a little pay raise, that position takes some skills right? How about a gs 5 C Faller…ever priced a tree removal? Pretty expensive due to some skills and experience. GS8 captains make a decent wage right? Around $48000 starting as a step one. I have developed enough computer skills, hr work, supervising, managing fleet, managing a budget, that I have interviewed for jobs in logistics that would pay me twice that yearly wage. I still like work so I’m still here and I love watching my folks develop and overcome challenges. What I am sick of is seeing the stress on their faces wondering if they are going get any OT this week to make it worth spending gas money to get to work. I’m sick of hearing retirees that just might have spent the last half of their career as a gs9+ telling people to just deal with it and to stop whining. I had two seasonal employees turn down returning for gs 5 upgrades this year. I spent 3 years training these guys. They really wanted to make this a career. They couldn’t make enough money to live on without having a second job. If you ever tried to have second job as a WFF it’s tough to find a company that will deal with the unknown schedule. And since there is no guarantee of OT I lost them, the agency lost them, and the taxpayers lost them. After looking at one of our perm lead’s pay stub after his benefits came out they weren’t even interested in the perm positions.
Old DRHS the agency is not moving to fix these issues. They are not being honest with the tax payers and they are not being honest with the employees. Morale continues to lower. There is evidence!! Employees are leaving that are very close to retirement. We put people through a 6 month hiring process for jobs that barely break even. HR screws up their HR actions so consistently that it’s part of briefing new employees. There is a massive lack of vehicles. All of these things have consistently gotten worse for years. So, keep up telling all of us we don’t understand, and we are lazy, whiny turds. Most of us just want to be in the woods cutting trees, hiking, and making OT. We can barely make it out to the woods with out some completely unrelated bs to do on computer. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
Also a supervisor with 20 year and your explanation is exactly the same as mine. Goes to show this experience is not isolated but felt across the country.
Honestly DRHS, I have been saying this a for while to my peers…what’s all this hoopla about not being happy. If your not happy leave man, there are tons of other jobs out there that you may be happy with and “have better pay and life balance.” You applied for this job maybe not knowing all the ins and out but by now you do and if your not happy let someone else who does love this job have yours. I love it, will never do anything else ever and yeah long hours and crappy conditions, but you know what if we weren’t out there doing this stuff who would be. I can’t be an ER doctor and I am sure some hate it, but if they weren’t there at 2 AM when my 7 month old wouldnt stop puking and had a high fever, I don’t know what I would do! Thank you for everyone who loves this job and feels a sense of encouragement, some beauracry does suck with the agencies, but what job doesn’t!
I’ll add to this here, if you’re unhappy with the issues associated with this profession, then take them up the ladder. If you’re and Engine Captain, go to your FMO and ask them to take it to the Ranger. I know this doesn’t always work, but if you’re persistent, squeeky wheel and all that (don’t start, SR, I respect your views and realize you’ve been treated poorly). What I’m saying is, if you don’t like the situation, do something about it, or move on. Yeah, all us retired folks had it great. We didn’t get paid a lot, we had to work on fixing things at our own stations (straightening out old nails cause we didn’t have money to go buy new ones), padding mileage so we could run into town, digging trenches for water or sewer lines, sometimes worked at out stations that never went to fires (what OT), etc. We got to work in the woods, with some good folks, and learn about hydraulics, tree-cutting, wildlife biology, recreation, fire science, and all of the things Forestry Technicians do. So, quit whining and be a part of the solution, not the problem.
I think I have a solution for all of the issues in this thread!!! Pending the FS ability to hire a few social media managers…gs 13 should be adequate at around 2-6 positions per forest (7 day coverage). As we lose lives and property they can be sure to post on every platform “Thoughts and prayers go out to those affected by someone’s incompetence but certainly not anyone in a position of power and responsibily! TYSM???✌️! Be sure to go out and enjoy your public lands!” I’m submitting this to the next DLT and it will probably be taken seriously…
Bureaucracy and politics are insane worlds. The reality is that it’s safer to not rock the boat in most situations and maintain the status quo to keep their job or office. And they definitely don’t want to do anything drastic if they’re seeking a promotion or higher office.
The only real way to get the pay up and the benefits needed is for bureaucrats and politicians to pay a real price for ignoring the problems. The only way to do that is make more of their voters think it’s THE primary issue.
So, when the next community burns down, instead of getting talking points into the local media and comment sections about what politicians want their bases to argue over (climate change, raking the forests, all the other buzz words), start making it clear that it burned down because the agency treats their employees so poorly that their retention for talented firefighters gets worse every year. Tell them the pay, benifits, and quality of life working at In and Out Burger is better than a “forestry technician.” Center everything around the personnel. Even if all the other hot button issues have merit to you, the personnel has to take priority to win this fight.
I’m curious how people are being hired for NPS/FS fire positions on USAJobs, when the website says that it’s down for maintenance? I’m sure it will be fixed soon, but come on NPS/FS stop lying. You’re losing the people’s trust!!!
I needed new trailer tires this week. Im being as positive as possible. And its not every day Im lucky enough to pay $7/ gallon for diesel. These fuel prices trending higher than cruising height for air attack have to be smashing every agency and contractors budgets to smithereens. Any insight on that angle anyone?
I’ve heard that because the USFS couldn’t staff a lot of exclusive use contracts 7-days per week they switched to Call When Needed (CWN) contracts.
But many helicopter contractors are finding better paying gigs, and won’t be available for fires this year.
That’s a bit of rumor but probably true
That is a very bizarre rumor. EU contracts are designed to be staffed 7 days a week and to my knowledge, no one has had trouble doing that. Sure, there’s a heli manager shortage (like every other position), but for the modules/crews that have been staffing helicopters since forever, I’m pretty sure some of those crews wanted their critical element back for the season….
The switch to CWN contracts was a ‘round file it all’ decision by the head of aviation contracting. The contracts that were sent out for solicitation for Type 1,2 & 3 aircraft were all awarded, then all protested. Enter attorneys. Push delete button, scrap it all.
“Let them get CWNs!” Declares Boise.
The ‘other’ rumors are two rappel crews are without rappel qualified aircraft; a short-haul module is not providing short-haul capabilities for this season, nor were they given an aircraft (the USFS has a total of 5 short-haul modules with 4 aircraft, but now 4 modules with 3 aircraft? That seems like a poor decision for them and for the people who get injured, but I’m bad at math and what do I know). Aaaaand, the big bad type 1s will continue to cost everyone more and more since, you know, we can CWN those big pigs for $$$$$$. Who knows who else got screwed in this decision…?
If 7 day staffing was a concern for all of those contracts that went out, I would be really surprised….someone, enlighten me….that sounds more like the WO putting a ‘spin’ on why aviation has been left in the lurch….
The system must fail in order for it to change? Well, thank goodness the failing started years ago and is finally reaching a critical mass. Unfortunately it will be taking money out of agency firefighters pockets, while padding the s?&@ out of contractors coffers. And oh, you were injured and that short-haul crew isn’t available? No worries, we’ll phone a friend……
Lightning bust in inaccessible terrain and your crew can’t rappel it since you didn’t get the pilots and aircraft carded for that? Bummer. Well, let it go…..these understaffed teams need another project fire to eat candy at anyway.
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local/2022/04/28/2-helicopters-owned-by-same-florida-company-crash-into-lake-apopka-just-hours-apart/
Tangentially fire related in that this company is contracted by several FL state agencies for call when needed PSD and heli-torch work. They were conducting hydrilla treatments on the lake. Hearsay is that both pilots lost horizon orientation due to glare from the lake and had controlled flights into the drink. Both are ok. The loss of two ships will likely make this already competitive work even tighter. Take care everyone and know that even those who have decades of very technical experience can make a mistake.
The WO USFS now sits in the staging area trying to figure out how to fight fire in an agency that has a decentralized organization with frustrated skilled firefighters. WO USFS ask around who should do what- we don’t know so let’s just make it up. Tell there boss all is good- because they hired us. The firefighters say no it is not. The staging area gets hot, dusty and windy so the smart firefighters leave so they don’t get burned over.
USFS WO leadership can’t figure out who to send where for the task because they don’t know the task because they haven’t done the task. So they make stuff up, make it better than it is, to save there job. Just sit and wait as the ship sinks.
I’ll put by bureaucratic woods burner helmet on for a second. Land Management agencies are very political and run by political appointees. We hear one thing and see another in testimony because “nobody wants bad news from Disney Land”. Keep yours heads on a swivel and fight the good fight. The lands going to burn one way or another, how do you want it?
One reason for FS decline is HR and the Albuquerque Service Center. Ever since centralization of this essential function, FS has had a difficult time staffing and it gets worse every year. Budget and contracting are both centralized now – taking authority and flexibility away from the local units. If you want to get FS back in action, then return authorities for admin services to local levels.
Local units did not do well in making the fire organizing look like the rest of the country in terms of diversity so centralized fire hire was implemented. At least when it was a locals majority organization, housing needs for seasonals wasn’t so dire. The agency prioritizes optics over performance.
With California upping their personnel headcount on crews, does anyone have any hard data on how many crews were able to hire to 25? With details being hard to fill, how many of the states 50+ Fed crews will be starting out as type 2IA or suppression module this year?
California (Calfire) is hiring 1,000 new FF for handcrews and argument engine staffing by June 30, 2022. Rumors are the new budget(July 1, 2022) will have 1,600 new perm positions. This is a numbers problem before its an pay problem. More people are retiring(Baby Boomers & now Gen X) then are working/entering the work force(Gen X, millennials,, Gen Z). Every Fire academy in California has space and graduates 50-75% of capacity. Same thing for paramedic programs. Local program has 24 students with space for 40 due to vaccine requirements. The bottom line as Elon Musk says is people need to have larger families. When the Local Jack In The Box has a sign hiring at $17/hr and In N Out is now hiring at $18.50/hr ther is now way to compete without better pay & benefits in this competitive marker. The definition of inflation is “Too much money, chasing too few goods” the same is true for FF. Except the government agency able to respond the quickest, will have the best chance to fill empty positions.
So, I started last week on the phone with FS and ended the week on the phone with a Congress person. When I talked to FS, they seemed clueless. They said that they had hired all these people, but if that’s the case then why are some dispatches being consolidated. If they hired all these people then why are some forest at 40% capacity and others are at 60% capacity. If they hired all these people then why are key positions still not filled. Not only were they clueless, but it seemed like there was a disconnect between the Forest and SOs, the SOs and ROs, and ROs and WO. Maybe this is by design, I’m not sure…The call with the Congress person wasn’t much better. She seemed to believe that everything was great at the FS. But after we explained the lack of capacity, low pay, low morale, and much, much more…I hope she realized that the FS was lieing to her. I will not believe the FS or Congress until I see people get their raises. It’s not what you say it’s what you do!!!
The Regional Offices / Local Units are afraid to report the numbers now to the Washington Office because the DC folks have planted their foot down claiming 90% staffing multiple times to Congress. So now reality doesn’t fit the narrative.
Smokejumper Bro, that makes sense! I wanted to let you know I watched the hearing last week with Randy Moore. I thought it was funny that one guy called the Forest Service the Fire Service. But I was frustrated with the conversation about the Strategic Plan because 1) there’s no plan and 2) it’s only funded for 5 years. They also talked about Forest Plans and how they have not been updated. They also talked about how to do things eventhough the budget didn’t cover it. Do more with less. I hate that statement. Moore of course talked about parternships, blah, blah, blah…anyway I would have to sum the hearing in 2 words…BS. Like I’ve said so many times I will not believe the FS until I see it.
The memorandum about mandatory testing for counties in medium or high transmission rates. Bummer the Agency has to keep moving forward with this to make it seem like it will be a “safe work environment.”
All popultions of organisms boom and bust, including those that hide out in counties with “low” transmission rates.
There were 11 active fires in FS Region 3 last week, some started by prescribed burns, but there were a lot of fires in other states like CO that were put out very quickly by the military, state, and local firefighters. So, I’d like to thank the military, state, and local firefighters for their quick response. Thank you so much!!!
YESSSS! How many billions are going into rapid detection and response? .00000025?w
I watched Chief Randy Moore testify this week to justify the USFS FY ’23 budget request before the house appropriations committee.
I think his opening remarks were great, where he made the case for paying a living wage to Wildland Firefighters. But later in the hearing he testified that their goal of 11,400 fire employees was 90% met, with more hiring to come…
Well in the BuzzFeed article they document well over 10% (1,140) vacancies, in just a small subset of Fire positions.
So I’m wondering what the real numbers are and why the USFS continually undermines their own request for a living wage? If staffing is fine, then why pay more?
I’d just like to know the truth. And the BuzzFeed journalist tweeted today the USFS response, a letter chilling free speech amongst their employees.
These aren’t state secrets, this is a public agency managing our public lands. Let’s pay better wages so we can focus on the job again. I haven’t had a single conversation on a fire that didn’t get into staffing or pay for years now.
CYA has been SOP for generations in bureaucracies and politics. EXPECT “alternative facts.”
Damn bro. I’m have seen the tweet but I figured it was going to come to this. Social media and the internet is a cool tool but I feel it is destroying our country. Stay safe out there SJB maybe I’ll see you on my next assignment. Sadly I’m still stuck.
Let’s go to Fantasyland for a minute an say we actually fill all of the vacancies and these additional new positions. We don’t have the infrastructure to support additional employees. When I have talked to rangers, SO employees, FMOs, etc it’s like they are surprised that that is something that will need to be taken care of. I just don’t think we will be able to right the ship at this point. If accurate information ever makes it to Congress i think we may see the fire program management taken from the FS and put under a different agency. Of course this is most likely 10-20 years out. So my solution is to push people to the quality state and local fire organizations that seem to be really coming into their own now. I never thought I would hit that point after 15 years with the FS but here I am.
Would you please link to the tweet? Couldn’t find it. Thanks!
https://twitter.com/bri_sacks/status/1520148279387848704?t=ZW85EM9bodgoOrMB6sBFjg&s=19
The “pay” discussion has extended three decades ir more. Longer than most firefighter careers.
Agencies cannot set higher gs pay rates.
It will take initiative from Congress.
And while there is front row attention to providing tens of thousands of dollars in “student loan foregiveness” , firefighter pay is far back on their list of priorities.