California National Guard trucks at the fairgrounds staging area in Yreka, California, August 13, 2014 while the Beaver Fire was burning northwest of the town. Some of these hauled firefighters in the back. Photo by Bill Gabbert.
This weekend we are continuing something we started a few weeks ago. This post can serve as the beginning of an open thread where our readers can talk about issues that we have, or have not, gotten into yet. This is literally an off-topic thread.
The usual rules about commenting apply. And remember, no personal attacks, please.
So let’s enjoy a wide-ranging debate!
(Oh, and send us pics of staging areas — date, location, and photographer’s name would be nice.)
Typos, let us know HERE, and specify which article. Please read the commenting rules before you post a comment.
There is an update online for S-270 that goes over the newer aircraft. On some of the firefighter pages on Facebook, under files, is a power point by Santa Fe Helitack that is pretty up to date. Wildland Firefighters is one. The Wildland Firefighter is another. Its a big file, so its hard to just email it to someone. It used to be on the SWCC page, but they took it down for some reason.
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Bill, what do you think about having one of these topics over on the Aviation side? Maybe call it the “Fire Traffic Area”?
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Interesting idea
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So….. pre-position hours/TDY hours and accomodations for RX? Especially if everyone starts getting moved from duty locations to do fireshed doom units all spring…
Any thoughts on policy or pressures to get some standard hours and lodging before it turns into some lame district offering 10s for staging or tenting up in spring rainstorms to do thinning 100 miles from your home or barracks?
All I can find is Master Agreement stuff about paid standby that anecdotally has already been challenged and lost.
Any thoughts?
Also, if you are fine with the whole bootstraps fiscal conservative like-it-or-leave it approach, there is no need to point it out. Policy already supports you.
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Are we now running 50:1 mix in Mark 3 pumps? How did this all come about? Do the manufacturers know? 50 years as a profession running 24:1 and now my life is upside down.
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Yeah
I agree with you…do the manufacturers know this new trick of 50:1?
We ll know some of the saws and 50:1
I always thought 24:1 was Mark III claim to fame
Like to see some PROOF that 50:1 is alright to use or does it void the manufacturers warranty?
Spent many a chilly hour riding around in the back of an earlier model of Deuce-and-a-Half on the Klamath back in ’87.
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I am wondering if anyone has an opinion on why the Santa Fe forest and the Carson forest send their fire resources, like fire engines, to other far away fires if they are in extreme fire danger. Seems like shut down the forests just so that they could go away and not have to worry about fires. No accountability an no true fire coverage for the FS, they just keep doing this every year. If they can do this every year then that means they are overstaffed with their fire personnel. Look at wild web. Someone who works with FS might know.
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Firedog,
I work for FS. I am here as one of a number of off-forest resources down in NM right now on severity assignments. I checked Wildweb and none of us were listed for the Cibola, next door. Not sure what the planning motives are for the local resources, but there are definitely a lot more firefighters here than what the website shows. Might be the same for Santa Fe.
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What are the chances that anybody who is a PSE in the 0462 series will end up a PFT with 800 hrs annually of mandatory fuels work after fire season is over if they convert to the 0456 series?
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800 hours of fuels work in my off season would involve digging trees out of 15 feet of snow pack in order to cut them down. And if they want to kick me to another forest to do it, it better include 16 hours or pay, hotels, and per diem.
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Opinion: NWCG has gone by the wayside. “Collateral Damage” perhaps to blame. FS does what it wants with FSFAQG and BLM/NPS what it wants with PMS 310-1. A serious reboot is required – and a LOT MORE MONEY to the training positions at NIFC. We have had collaterals running very important jobs such as these, also regional saw coordinators FS, for quite sometime. My guess is that they do the same thing I do with my collateral responsibilities: Ill do what I can – but – when it comes time to ration time between those collateral duties and my subordinates – I will choose the subordinates everytime. Meanwhile, we have “collateral damage” – and what am I to do? I have told supts to forest FLT to Regional FAM, to WO FAM that these other duties as assigned need to be a full time job. The answer: well do we really need that? YES! WE DO! And dismantle the long list of qualifications to do it! Base it on capability and performance! Give the tools and support to allow damn good underqualified people the chance to shine. The list: Timekeeper, Travel Coordinator, Unit Saw Program Manager, Training Officer (for each zone! – I know crazy idea right?), Unit Aviation Manager (org chart has one – but Region / Forest wont fly it?), Fire Safety Officer (we think a cush job for a burned out FMO – but actually a very important job that loads of younger people’s energy would turn it good again!
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Hard yes. So many of these positions need an injection of young blood, across the fire programs in all agencies.
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Why is the USFS/NWCG training so out of date? Some of the classes are over 20 years old and are effectively useless. Is there any plan to update our many out of date S-courses?
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IDK I think the computer animation in the S212 holds up great. Reminds me of that 90s tv show reboot.
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Excellent question! I just finished instructing S-270 (Basic Air Ops) last week with “current” version dated 2012. Aviation changes are constant and at “only” 10 years old it’s almost light years out of date! Any PBY’s, Lama’s, or Alouette’s still around? Spent hours adding material about UAS, next-gen air-tankers, short-haul, helicopter modernization, etc, etc. so students would have a better understanding of what’s really out there. Updates aren’t that difficult these days with virtually everything only available online, updates should be annual. The days of over-head projectors, slide carousels, and even cd’s are gone! “Train as you fight….” still applies.
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0
There is an update online for S-270 that goes over the newer aircraft. On some of the firefighter pages on Facebook, under files, is a power point by Santa Fe Helitack that is pretty up to date. Wildland Firefighters is one. The Wildland Firefighter is another. Its a big file, so its hard to just email it to someone. It used to be on the SWCC page, but they took it down for some reason.
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Oglethorpe, did you play in the Federal League in the late 70s? I think I played against you when I played for Charlestown.
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Yep. Had to go back and finish my prison sentence after we lost the final. Got picked up by the Chicago Blackhawks in the 80’s and was an assistant coach in the 90’s. I am now the assistant coach for the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Penguins and I play in a few old timer games.
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Lots of us on here would like to know about OPM’s progress on the new series…anyone have an update from the mysterious beyond?
Thank you Bill for your work with this site. I know my small contributions don’t add up to lot – the work you do is critical. Let us know what support you need. I mean that not in a WO or Regional way – but in a forestry tech to forestry tech way.
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The USFS never published their recording of the town hall from May 23rd or 24th. What’s up with that. And does anyone have a link to the recording?
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Not surprising. The agencies seem so paranoid of the media / pressure from the public / pressure from Congress etc. “if your not a FS employee you need to leave the meeting” they say and the whole email about how we employees shouldn’t talk to the media? Now if you email that address for questions (the correct one-not the wrong address they gave out at the meeting) an auto reply basically says they can’t answer all questions so don’t expect an answer. Accountability for failing and lying would be great. But we know how that goes….
Anybody else see this?
https://www.fs.usda.gov/inside-fs/delivering-mission/excel/wildland-firefighter-pay-classification-infrastructure-law
The only part of it that is actually new information is that implementation is now scheduled for “the end of this month or the middle of next month”. So yeah, pretty much the same as before.
There is an update online for S-270 that goes over the newer aircraft. On some of the firefighter pages on Facebook, under files, is a power point by Santa Fe Helitack that is pretty up to date. Wildland Firefighters is one. The Wildland Firefighter is another. Its a big file, so its hard to just email it to someone. It used to be on the SWCC page, but they took it down for some reason.
Bill, what do you think about having one of these topics over on the Aviation side? Maybe call it the “Fire Traffic Area”?
Interesting idea
So….. pre-position hours/TDY hours and accomodations for RX? Especially if everyone starts getting moved from duty locations to do fireshed doom units all spring…
Any thoughts on policy or pressures to get some standard hours and lodging before it turns into some lame district offering 10s for staging or tenting up in spring rainstorms to do thinning 100 miles from your home or barracks?
All I can find is Master Agreement stuff about paid standby that anecdotally has already been challenged and lost.
Any thoughts?
Also, if you are fine with the whole bootstraps fiscal conservative like-it-or-leave it approach, there is no need to point it out. Policy already supports you.
Are we now running 50:1 mix in Mark 3 pumps? How did this all come about? Do the manufacturers know? 50 years as a profession running 24:1 and now my life is upside down.
Yeah
I agree with you…do the manufacturers know this new trick of 50:1?
We ll know some of the saws and 50:1
I always thought 24:1 was Mark III claim to fame
Like to see some PROOF that 50:1 is alright to use or does it void the manufacturers warranty?
The newer 185cc models call for 50:1.
https://waterax.imgix.net/products/documents/185cc-Fuel-Mix-Ratio-50-1.pdf
Spent many a chilly hour riding around in the back of an earlier model of Deuce-and-a-Half on the Klamath back in ’87.
I am wondering if anyone has an opinion on why the Santa Fe forest and the Carson forest send their fire resources, like fire engines, to other far away fires if they are in extreme fire danger. Seems like shut down the forests just so that they could go away and not have to worry about fires. No accountability an no true fire coverage for the FS, they just keep doing this every year. If they can do this every year then that means they are overstaffed with their fire personnel. Look at wild web. Someone who works with FS might know.
Firedog,
I work for FS. I am here as one of a number of off-forest resources down in NM right now on severity assignments. I checked Wildweb and none of us were listed for the Cibola, next door. Not sure what the planning motives are for the local resources, but there are definitely a lot more firefighters here than what the website shows. Might be the same for Santa Fe.
What are the chances that anybody who is a PSE in the 0462 series will end up a PFT with 800 hrs annually of mandatory fuels work after fire season is over if they convert to the 0456 series?
800 hours of fuels work in my off season would involve digging trees out of 15 feet of snow pack in order to cut them down. And if they want to kick me to another forest to do it, it better include 16 hours or pay, hotels, and per diem.
Opinion: NWCG has gone by the wayside. “Collateral Damage” perhaps to blame. FS does what it wants with FSFAQG and BLM/NPS what it wants with PMS 310-1. A serious reboot is required – and a LOT MORE MONEY to the training positions at NIFC. We have had collaterals running very important jobs such as these, also regional saw coordinators FS, for quite sometime. My guess is that they do the same thing I do with my collateral responsibilities: Ill do what I can – but – when it comes time to ration time between those collateral duties and my subordinates – I will choose the subordinates everytime. Meanwhile, we have “collateral damage” – and what am I to do? I have told supts to forest FLT to Regional FAM, to WO FAM that these other duties as assigned need to be a full time job. The answer: well do we really need that? YES! WE DO! And dismantle the long list of qualifications to do it! Base it on capability and performance! Give the tools and support to allow damn good underqualified people the chance to shine. The list: Timekeeper, Travel Coordinator, Unit Saw Program Manager, Training Officer (for each zone! – I know crazy idea right?), Unit Aviation Manager (org chart has one – but Region / Forest wont fly it?), Fire Safety Officer (we think a cush job for a burned out FMO – but actually a very important job that loads of younger people’s energy would turn it good again!
Hard yes. So many of these positions need an injection of young blood, across the fire programs in all agencies.
Why is the USFS/NWCG training so out of date? Some of the classes are over 20 years old and are effectively useless. Is there any plan to update our many out of date S-courses?
IDK I think the computer animation in the S212 holds up great. Reminds me of that 90s tv show reboot.
Excellent question! I just finished instructing S-270 (Basic Air Ops) last week with “current” version dated 2012. Aviation changes are constant and at “only” 10 years old it’s almost light years out of date! Any PBY’s, Lama’s, or Alouette’s still around? Spent hours adding material about UAS, next-gen air-tankers, short-haul, helicopter modernization, etc, etc. so students would have a better understanding of what’s really out there. Updates aren’t that difficult these days with virtually everything only available online, updates should be annual. The days of over-head projectors, slide carousels, and even cd’s are gone! “Train as you fight….” still applies.
There is an update online for S-270 that goes over the newer aircraft. On some of the firefighter pages on Facebook, under files, is a power point by Santa Fe Helitack that is pretty up to date. Wildland Firefighters is one. The Wildland Firefighter is another. Its a big file, so its hard to just email it to someone. It used to be on the SWCC page, but they took it down for some reason.
Oglethorpe, did you play in the Federal League in the late 70s? I think I played against you when I played for Charlestown.
Yep. Had to go back and finish my prison sentence after we lost the final. Got picked up by the Chicago Blackhawks in the 80’s and was an assistant coach in the 90’s. I am now the assistant coach for the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton Penguins and I play in a few old timer games.
Lots of us on here would like to know about OPM’s progress on the new series…anyone have an update from the mysterious beyond?
Thank you Bill for your work with this site. I know my small contributions don’t add up to lot – the work you do is critical. Let us know what support you need. I mean that not in a WO or Regional way – but in a forestry tech to forestry tech way.
The USFS never published their recording of the town hall from May 23rd or 24th. What’s up with that. And does anyone have a link to the recording?
Not surprising. The agencies seem so paranoid of the media / pressure from the public / pressure from Congress etc. “if your not a FS employee you need to leave the meeting” they say and the whole email about how we employees shouldn’t talk to the media? Now if you email that address for questions (the correct one-not the wrong address they gave out at the meeting) an auto reply basically says they can’t answer all questions so don’t expect an answer. Accountability for failing and lying would be great. But we know how that goes….