Senator Maria Cantwell, during hearing, June 9, 2022.On Thursday Senators questioned Chief of the US Forest Service Randy Moore about a number of issues during a hearing before the Committee on Energy and Natural Resources. Some of the key topics included firefighter pay, fuel treatments, prescribed fire, escaped prescribed fire, hiring and retention, the number of firefighters in the agency, and firefighting aircraft. Wildfire Today covered the discussions on all of those topics, but here are the details about firefighting aircraft. It begins in the archived video at 1:54:00.
Senator Maria Cantwell threw Chief Moore what should have been a softball question. “Where we are with our [firefighting] air capacity,” she said. “We previously had this discussion with the Forest Service wanting them to have more ready resources. The Forest Service I think at that time didn’t want to be in the fleet management business and said we’d rather contract. How are you viewing those air resources now that we know that we have so many more fire starts…We want to know that we have that early phase retardant or water…How is the Forest Service managing that given the huge increase in fire starts?”
Forest Service Chief Randy Moore, during June 9, 2022 hearing.Chief Moore responded: “You may know now that we have access to about 27 VLATS, Very large air tankers, also the large air tankers and so far we are not running across a need for additional tankers in this particular case at this particular time. We also — I don’t know why these decisions were made in the past about the aircraft but we do know that they are expensive to maintain if Forest Service had ownership of them. But you know there are pros and cons about that so I won’t really go into that, I’m not familiar with what went into that many years ago. In terms of our aircraft, we certainly need aircraft to help us with fire suppression. We also know that there are limitations with aircraft as well because aircraft don’t put out fires. It’s boots on the ground is where the fires are really put out.”
His predecessor in April 2021 squandered a softball opportunity to tell the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Interior, Environment, and Related Agencies that the Forest Service needed more funding in two very important and inadequately budgeted areas, fuels treatment and aerial firefighting. Today Chief Moore squandered a similar opportunity, giving an incoherent response when basically asked, “Do you have enough firefighting aircraft?”
The facts are, there are 2 Very Large Air Tankers (VLAT) and 16 Large Air Tankers (LAT) on conventional exclusive use (EU) contracts, working for 160 days. To say “We have access to 27” VLATs and/or LATs is intentionally misleading. The Forest Service assumes that the additional tankers on Call When Needed (CWN) contracts that may or may not ever be used, are always available at private companies, with flight crews and mechanics that are ready to quickly mobilize if the phone rings. And, it assumes that those companies are still in business and the very expensive aircraft which may have been idle for months are fully maintained and airworthy. It is also usually possible to activate up to eight military C-130s temporarily converted to air tankers by carrying a Modular Airborne FireFighting System (MAFFS). But after hearing some chatter, we are checking to see if those will be available this year. It might be notable that the Chief did not mention MAFFS.
There are only a total of four VLATs in the Western Hemisphere that could be used on fires in the United States, all DC-10s. Two are on conventional 160-day Forest Service EU contracts and the other two were recently activated on 120-day “surge” contracts.
Two studies conducted for the Forest Service made recommendations for the number of air tankers that are needed on exclusive use contracts. One said 35 and the other said 41. We have 18 in 2022.
19 Comments
This continues to show just much of a FAILED agency the U.S F.S. Is !!!
Clueless at the TOP !
There’s also a shortage nationally of air attack group supervisors to control the air space / fire traffic area, air space managed and air safety and coordinate air tanker drops and helicopter operations with ground resources. The agency uses a number of retirees as AD employees’ kind of call when needed to supplement the shortages, but still falls short as there’s not enough qualified to meet those expectations.
******Missing*******
-23 VLATS
Red and white in color, look like a big Tylenol
If found please call Randy Moore, Chief of the USFS. $50 cash award
[[dies laughin]]
Thanks for that, RSIJ, I needed a big laugh this morning. ✈️ ✈️ ✈️ ✈️ ✈️
https://unitedaero.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/fire-fighting-10.png
SWCC aviation site showing 3 VLATS on EU contracts, 1 on CWN, 12 additional LATs assigned to the GACC.
There are only 4 LATs, all DC-10’s the entire fleet, regardless of contracts.
Correction: VLATS.
Really “no need for more aircraft ”
Boots on the ground , try and find enough boots that want to work a fire .
Calif alone needs all 27 of the aircraft
Absolutely PATHETIC! If there was a question about failed leadership in the FS let this be the final straw! To imply at a Congressional hearing that you have access to 27 VLATs when in reality they can be counted on the fingers of one hand is total totally incompetent! An executive / leader at this level should have these big picture strategic numbers ready to recite at a moments notice. I don’t expect them to know the fuel consumption per hour or download of an A-Star B3, but you should damn well know the number of VLATs, LATs, SEATS, T1-2-3 helicopters, etc. on EU & CWN contracts and the fact that more are needed then make that request! If WO leadership can’t articulate this basic info then no wonder the agency is imploding! The field folks see and experience this incompetence daily, have lost respect, and are leaving in droves or not even seeking employment to begin with. Was hoping year by year things would get better, but now I’m not so sure…..
And people wonder why there also needs to be a separate aviation Agency that doesn’t carry this much ineptitude. So who’s handling the S270 type courses these days? How current is that whole S and I courses and Red Student Guide system workin out these days?
Apparently form follows function when the Basic S270 hasn’t been kept up to date
I posted this last weekend (I’m an AOBD w/ 30 years experience in wildland fire aviation): I just finished instructing S-270 (Basic Air Ops) last week with “current” version dated 2012. Aviation changes are constant and at “only” 10 years old it’s almost light years out of date! Any PBY’s, Lama’s, or Alouette’s still around? Spent hours adding material about UAS, next-gen air-tankers, short-haul, helicopter modernization, etc, etc. so students would have a better understanding of what’s really out there. Updates aren’t that difficult these days with virtually everything only available online, updates should be annual. The days of over-head projectors, slide carousels, and even cd’s are gone! “Train as you fight….” still applies.
Firebrand
My argument for a separate Fire Aviation agency still stands
When an Agency is ten years behind in S270 curriculum and can not do the basics of forest management
You get the idea…
Having the right kind of aircraft and using them the right way seem to be two issues the FS can’t get straight.
Good points Wendie!!
And all that cheap talk about USFS and the Rey Admin and “gittin” those C130J / LM1000s. When the organization had had no coherent plan per the NDAA 2014 and couldn’t get it act together…..you get the idea
Anyone want to chirp about contractors and their investments into aircraft? Seems to me ALL the helo and aircraft contractors have more poop in a group than any USFS SES type who thinks they -“know” aviation!!
While this performance is shameful for the agency and for the country that supports it, it’s just a symptom. While it would be great if the head of any large organization had practical knowledge of every part of their organization, it never works that way. In this case, the Chief needed better briefing materials and more practice. On the fire side, the briefings are supposed to come through the office of the Deputy Chief who oversees the Fire Director, who relies on what used to be called the “FAM Twelve” Assistant Directors to do the work and provide the updates. That group has been dysfunctional for over a decade now. Someone mentioned in the comments to the sister article on Wildfire Today that one of them – Mark Lichtenstein – was with Moore. Lichtenstein, a budget guy, is the most senior of the group and is openly hostile to aviation. He has no authority over operations, but uses his budget clout to control priorities. No one in the chain above him sets priorities, so the group either follows his lead or hunkers down and protects silos.
Speaking of silos, what is the actual number of airtankers available this year? Did anybody count Cal Fire’s S2s? How about the state of Washington’s newly contracted airtankers? It matters because they’re there and they’ll be used. They just won’t be used efficiently because the agencies have become incapable of cooperatively planning. There was something called the Cohesive Plan years ago, but I don’t think enough people in the agency realized they should actually implement the vision within it. There’s a lot of blame to go around, but not many people willing to take the blame and put in the work to fix the problems.
This is why the Forest Service is drowning. There are so many layers of dysfunctional programs and leaders. Just the fact that two of the FS leadership have now gone in front of committees with no idea of what is actually happening on the ground. In this same hearing Randy Moore swears there are only 1200 firefighting positions unfilled nationwide. That’s really interesting because R5 has publicly said they’re missing 1500. Talking with some forests, they’re shuttering 1/4 or more of their engines because they can’t fill jobs. Out of touch leadership. At some point it’s either incompetence, ignorance or inability to handle the job.
This complete lack of knowledge about aircraft and the capabilities and numbers is just another notch in the board for folks ready to leave this agency. How can a functional leadership be so out of touch with the ground and still be functional?
The answer is it can’t.
Randy Moore is just another nail in the coffin of firefighters in the FS. Tom Vilsack may need to start looking for another chief because this current one and his crew aren’t cutting it in my opinion.
Rhetorical questions:
IF Moore doesn’t know what is going on in his own organization, why is he still there? Who put him in there?
If Moore isn’t doing the job he should be doing, why is he still there?
If Moore isn’t doing the job he should be doing, why is he not being held accountable?
If Moore said things that are not true, who will hold him accountable?
Should not the people who put, and keep, Moore in place be considered incompetent?
Corrupt?
Inept?
Criminal?
Or, is Moore doing exactly what he was hired to do (not to do?)
Where I reside, the local fire department recently lost two homes to fire just a few doors down from one another. One of those homes has been vacant for years but occupied by a squatter. Lots of small fire responses. City has not taken action to definitively solve the problem.
Second home was lost (the few doors down structure) along with a detached garage where the fire started and extended to an exposure. Fire department was on scene when only the garage was burning and the house was not involved.
The existing problem? Water main can not be flushed out and no pressure from the hydrants in the area. BUT WAIT! There’s more.
When was the water main no pressure problem known? About two-three years ago when a main street warehouse burned and was gutted. The hoseheads just couldn’t establish a patent water supply soon enough to reasonably combat the fire. Same thing recently with the two house fires.
About a week later, after the second structure fire, the city manager puts an action item on the city council agenda to take bids for replacement of the water main where the warehouse and two homes burned. Same city manager for all three fires, two different fire chiefs who told the city manager about the water supply problem.
Now related back to Moore: Why is that city manager still employed and not being accountable?
Why is Moore still there?
Yep…just like the Scratchline publication in 2007 lamenting the fact not enough peeps that could stand being “cooped” up in the aluminum tube…there is a slight solution…put newly minted CFIs who are looking for a few bucks …you know the guys and gals who teach other guys and gal to FLY.
I get it …one needs to go by the IFPM and 310-l ladder. But being a former Fed GS6 and WG10….dollars to donuts CFIs who have some good spatial knowledge could do as good maybe better than always a DIVS turned ATGS.
Otherwise, good on the AD cadre…like Rolling Stones used to sing….” You can’t always get want……”
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