San Diego County Sheriff helicopter 12 drops on a wildfire in Oceanside, CA June 29, 2022. Photo by Ryan Grothe.Today we are continuing an occasional weekend feature called Fire Traffic Area. This post serves as the beginning of an open thread where readers can leave comments about issues not yet covered — or maybe they have been covered. This is literally an off-topic thread. What do you think needs to be pointed out, asked, or discussed within the fire aviation community? You have the floor.
The usual rules about commenting apply. And remember, no personal attacks or politics, please.
28 Comments
A question I never thought to ask. Maybe this is the right place and time for it:
Are helicopters that draft averse to drafting salt water? I’m a long ways from an ocean and the thought never occurred to me before, but when I saw the picture of the San Diego copter it made me wonder.
The electrolytic effects of salt water are devastating to aircraft, especially to aluminum and magnesium. The battle against corrosion is thousands of years old and even though we understand it we have not conquered it. Helicopters do pump salt water into drop tanks if it is the most logical source of water. Ground crews spend hours rinsing and washing after such events. Engine compressor and gas path washes have to be part of this as the operators in the Gulf of Mexico have known for years. It is to be avoided if possible but life and property take precedence.
LA County’s rotaries will not do it. The Superscoopers will.
Was Stationed at Coast Guard Air Station Cape May NJ. (3) HH52A Fling Wings here. The Sikorsky 52A was the Greatest #1 Rescue Helicopter….Ever. Replaced by HH60. Landing and taxiing in Salt Water was expensive. From what I have heard… and I ask questions is it’s too costly to Build and Maintain Helo’s that land in Salt Water.
Steve:
No love for the HH 3 Pelican or the HH 65 Dolphin?
Well……The H3 was an outstanding Long Range SAR Helo. Its a big Machine.The 52 Holds the Worlds Record for the most rescues by a Helo anywhere. I ended up being an FE on CH54Bz post CG. So I like big Machines. Wish I had a chance someway or another to FE the 53 in my day. Don’t get me wrong but anything that Egor builds is #1 in my book. The H3 had a couple incidents where Crewmembers my age in the day were lost. That has remained in my memory banks, even today. Well—- the 65 is next. The 65 is a French helicopter and was to replace the 52. Egor turned over in his grave when the CG accepted it. Visited some Air Stations in the early 65 days. The hangars looked like a Junkyards with removed 65 engines everywhere. And yes the 65 didn’t land in the water, …HuH? Gotta Love the Fold Up cutout where the Aircrew stands,…HuH? Note to Tom…. I was medivac’d by a Lifestar civilian OH58 so I guess it doesn’t matter to the person(s) needing a rescue what model it is. Later on found out the 58 CP seat had to removed or something like that so I could be vacked. Im a big boy. The young kids crewing Helos nowadayz never flew on big airframed fling wings so they have to crew what Uncle Sam has money for and like it. o Well.
Any developments or data on the high altitude stratosphere ballon platforms I have read about on this site?
Functionality; Com/WX/cell/cartograpic instrumentation.
I understand a few have been in aerial patterns over large incidents.
Thank you
I have not heard anything recently, since writing this article. Anyone?
Aerostar contract awarded not to long ago… rollout one Montana recently.
Aerostar has an idea to Have one high up over a Fire to Monitor heated areas and to add Cell Signals to areas that do knot have a signal. And I’m sure other uses.
Appreciate your input. This type observation platform definitely will reduce near fatal and fatality injuries.
Addionally allowing extensive reconnaissance flight duration.
I support the program
Thank you
Tethered balloons aloft over a fire incident, particularly in low visibility, is an exceptionally bad idea. This is especially true with wind, in which the position of the tether changes as the balloon moves with the wind. In strong winds and gusting conditions, tethered balloons must be reeled in, or can be lost.
Tethered balloons are a hazard to aerial navigation. Put the balloon aloft, and reduce the availability of air resources.
We already have observation platforms over a fire, with qualified personnel on board for communication, observation, direction, management, assessment etc. They’re called ATGS in air attack platforms; Leadplanes,, and ASM platforms. Those resources are a LOT less expensive than a tethered balloon, too.
>> ATGS,, Leadplanes, and ASM platforms … are a LOT less expensive
Also smarter and better-looking.
Aerial Supervision, in the form of ATGS, ASM, and Leadplanes, might be less expensive, but get too many aircraft over an incident and Aerial Supervision tends to stop talking to Dispatch altogether- which is a major communication concern trending throughout the nation. Aerial Supervisors won’t hesitate to inform Dispatch they are last on the priority list when it comes to incident communication, and oftentimes, Aerial Supervision won’t talk to Dispatch for their entire shift over an incident. As a seasoned Aircraft Dispatcher, I have a hard time relying on Aerial Supervision for any sort of incident communication.
google…. Aerostar Balloons. Could be used at an altitude up to 80,000 agl. no kite strings.
Bill, I want ot thank you for a really informative website. Here in Malibu, I’ve actually used several of your items as sources for news stories on our community radio station, KBUU (with attribution, of course). You do a great job!!!
Thank you Hans.
The balloons referenced in the article aren’t tethered. At 60K feet or 70K feet there isn’t enough wind to move the balloon far enough to loose coverage over a fire. (Normally unless the jet stream or a really large thunderhead reaches it.) The problem for comms is the amount of terrain that a radio covers from that altitude. The diameter of the service range could be up to 350 miles, which precludes reusing the frequencies for other fires. That also includes cell service, which would require altering hundreds if not thousands of cell sites programming to accommodate the single site on the balloon. As a sensor platform, maybe. How do you service it? How long to put another one up to replace it? Not the best tool in the box by a long ways. The idea smacks of the manufacturers trying to sell a product when they built it before they did a market survey.
Why are SEATs rarely used, in California?
Some parts of California are quite open to SEAT use. Bishop opens up when needed for SEATs, and Chester has had SEATs on contract for a number of years. SEATs do work in other locations, on occasion. Some locations, such as San Bernardino, have been openly hostile to SEATs, even when they’re stopping through temporarily. By and large, California harbors a prejudice against 800 gallon SEAT’s, which is ironic, given that the state-level mainstay tanker was an 800 gallon tanker before it went turbine.
Funny that CA is openly hostile towards 800 gal SEATs, Doug.
Surely, it couldn’t be DynCorp/ Amentum kinda thing….sound more like a Land Management Agency Mafioso type of thing…..unless the ” union” attitude is like that of airlines…crossing pocket lines and gettin yur tires punctured by the brethren
Granted, the SEAT community at one time was viewed as cowboys….but my tours as SEAT manager has seen pilots from the spectrum of the industry…
My view only
Been an ATGS since 1988, originally assigned at CDF Ramona AAB. Was there when the first 802 Air Tractor was tested by Cal Fire on state incidents. It worked well with the two S-2 – 800 gallon air-tankers. Was a little slower, but when dropping retardant it was effective. Had four of them on a wildfire in 2016 on the Six Rivers NF working from Cave Junction airport, when there was no other aircraft available.
Used many times the last twelve years nationwide effectively for IA and also working several Fireboss (Scooper) aircraft in the west. Fast forward to today, since relocating to SW Colorado in 2018 and still working as AD ATGS for the San Juan NF and Durango Fire, the SEAT’s generally the only IA resources here on IA wildfires I’ve been assigned. The Rocky Mountain Region has quite a few on fire contracts every year. They are especially useful when no other aerial resources are available nearby, since they can operate from almost any airport or open road.
Captain Ron
Hey Ron, where are you located in SW Colorado, I’m over in Highlands Ranch for the last 8 yrs.
When I was active as an Aviation Officer back in 2015 I recall reading that a SEAT Level1 pilot was authorized to drop on an incident without ATGS on scene. A SEAT Level 2 pilot could drop first load IA without but could not drop again until an ATGS was ordered? It’s been a while so policy may have changed.
This making the SEAT an excellent IA when available. Most dispatchers and wildland agencies did not know this?
I support the SEAT program
Level 2 are paired with a Level one normally, and can then I.A. without aerial supervision. Otherwise Level 2 pilots (rookies) need ATGS or LP/ASM. Anytime there is a mix of fixed-wing and rotor-wing, or more than 2 total aircraft on a fire, aerial supervision must be ordered…not always on-scene yet but ordered. Some situations require aerial supervision to be on scene.
Thank you for clearing that up. I’ve been retired since 2016 so memories do get cluttered.
I just want to thank everyone involved in aviation. The ever changing. Complex. Stressful and commitment to achieving a safe environment in which we work.
I don’t see any thoughts about the FTA…
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