An internet-based petition to urge the government of British Columbia to issue another contract for the water-scooping Martin Mars air tanker has garnered over 16,000 supporters.
The appeal on the petition site, Change.org states:
Our province is burning. The Martin Mars waterbombers have stood the test of time. They are the best, most efficient and cheapest way to get the most water on a fire in the shortest amount of time. Contract the Coulson Martin Mars Waterbombers for 5 more years to protect BC from wildfires. Our province is burning and these are the best planes for the job! It cost $750,000 for a season. You are paying $3 million a day right now. Do the right thing! These planes are a bargain!
The Coulson Company announced in September of 2013 that they no longer had a contract with the government of British Columbia for the Martin Mars. The 7,000-gallon aircraft helped firefighters suppress fires for 53 years, and dropped over 8,000 loads. Built in the 1940s, it was converted into an air tanker with the capability to drop plain water or gel on fires.
Thanks and a hat tip go out to Mark.
36 Comments
Really? I am starting a petition on why I should be sent to the moon on the tax payers dime. I have no clue on what it takes or how much it coast but neither do the people signing this petition. Too the moon Alice, POW too the moon.
Great response Andrea. A petition signed by many people who have no idea how the air tanker program works and written to provoke an emotional response only.
they did that already, back in the sixties on the tax payer’s dime .
I agree Andrea. http://www.cjdccountry.com/News/Story.aspx?ID=2161993
Doesnt seem like folks care about the true cost until they actually have to pony up the tax dollars.
Well Mars bomber contract and fire fighting is cheaper to use. But do you want your taxes go high? The government is spending 3 to 5 million dollars a day without the Martin Mars and b.c is burning bad. But we do need our Martin Mars back flying and take out the fires right away. . She did a terrible plans for fire fighting this year. Martin Mars is on ground and waiting for contract..
Now there is someone that knows there english. 🙁
*their
Contrary to popular belief, the Martin Mars does not put out fires!!!
neither does the BCFS.
It sounds like you have an issue with BC’s Wildfire Management Branch. Is there a particular fire you’re conerned about?
why don’t you ask kelowna .
Just came off the Smith Creek fire (Kelowna). The 802f’s ran sortiees all day to support us pushing guard. Having worked with the Mars on a few fires, I can definitively say that the Firebosses are a superior aircraft for modern firefighting, where resources are used efficiently (ie, aircraft in concert with ground crews, what a concept). The Mars in a timber fuel type creates a huge hazard and adds to fuel loading with trees as big as 40cm dbh get snapped off. And Lord help you if you are working anywhere downhill.
Also, how about that drop pattern? Sure it looks cool from afar but my experience with anything but full flaps is a spotty mess.
It’s mentioned below, but the instant-house-saving-tnermogel magic bullet is a crock- direct drops on a structure?, yeah right.
Many great points mentioned below by Josh P and Chris Matthews. Read on.
The Martin Mars is the only aircraft that can directly protect an entire home from fire using thermogel to coat and protect it, in one drop.
How much does it cost the province and insurance and citizens of a community when 150 homes burn like just happened in Washington state and happened in Kelowna in 2003.
The Mars did just find protecting communities back then and back then it didn’t have the capabilities it has now with thermogel.
WHat’s more important, the difference between 0.12c/L and 0.48c/L dropped on a $60-$400 Million budget, or protecting people’s homes and livelihoods and firefighters on the ground.
And it’s not just the 18,000 people that have signed this petition now (from all across the province). It is also the UBCM decision representing every community in September last year that was passed unanimously.
It stated:
“WHEREAS the Martin Mars water bomber has served the British Columbia Forest Service since 1960, and is the largest direct attack fire suppression
aircraft in the world and without the Mars, the British Columbia Forest
Service has no direct attack airplanes to fight urban interface wildfires;
AND WHEREAS the contract between the BC Forest Service and Coulson Group, the operator of the Mars, expired on August 31, 2013, leaving communities in BC without protection provided by the Mars:
THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the Province of British Columbia be urged to renew the contract with Coulson Group and retain the Martin Mars waterbomber as part of its fire suppression program in the interests of its
effectiveness in direct attacks, delivery cost, its long-term utility and
its ability to create safe zones through strategic drops.”
The province ignored that and talked money instead, and they appear to be doing the same now. Sad.
http://www.change.org/bringbackthemars
Never ever would we drop a Mars load directly on a structure. That’s insane…. you’d be buying them a new house from the damage that did alone.
The Mars ran very few operational missions in the last few years and when it did, it often broke down, requiring long ferry trips back to Port Alberni for repairs, all on the tax payer dime.
Leave the operational fire decisions to the experts, please.
Oh dear. Mars cheerleaders and misplaced civic pride do tend to cause headaches. Here’s the official BC government response following this silly petition: http://www.newsroom.gov.bc.ca/ministries/forests-lands-and-natural-resource-operations/factsheets/factsheet-bcs-airtanker-fleet-and-the-martin-mars.html
Note that the Coulson Group did NOT respond to the recent amphibious aircraft request for proposal that resulted in the new FireBoss group in the province. All airtanker operators were provided with more than one years notice prior to the RFP being issued.
Here’s why nobody but Conair bid on the contract and you have a Government that is backing up everything the forest service has to say about the Mars operation ( lie’s and innuendo). I’m not against the fire boss’s, what I got a problem with is shortage off aircraft to look after a precious resource or somebody’s home and a BCFS taking side’s to shut down a fully capable Firehouse .I can’t believe you guy’s are so naive that your pitting one’ operation against the next guy when everything is needed .You guy’s want to replace the Mars for some stupid reason, what are you going to replace it with 4 crop sprayer’s, it’s like using a spade to build a road .Not to mention the BCFS imposed a safety hazard for the aircrew’s issuing a contract for single engine aircraft to do that job. Click on the link. http://contributions.electionsbc.gov.bc.ca/pcs/SA1SearchResults.aspx?FilerSK=%28ALL%29&EDSK=0&FilerTypeSK=0&Contributor=conair+group&PartySK=0&ED=%28ALL%29&FilerType=%28ALL%29&Filer=%28ALL%29&Party=%28ALL%29&DateTo&DateFrom&DFYear&DFMonth&DFDay&DTYear&DTMonth&DTDay
Using the same tool in your link, I typed in Coulson and found that he donated to those very same political parties.
These ‘crop sprayers’ seem to be impressing firefighters all over the world because they are still in production, on active fire duty in multiple countries, and still perform better than the Mars. So these must some pretty impressive road building shovels…
Coulson and the rest off us loggers also paid for your wage .
If the Mars is in fact the Wonder Plane you seem to think it is, doesn’t it make you wonder why none of the other agencies in the world are snatching it up? On this website you are constantly reading about the lack of planes across the US and yet none of them have jumped on board for this one that is available. What does that tell you?
sorry fellas , but shutting down a firehouse that is being offered to Gov. for the cost off doing the maintenance with a $ 4000 hourly rate for the first 45hrs as per fact sheet just makes no sense to me in the world off cutback’s and a volatile forest .I can guaranty you it wouldn’t happen in downtown anycity in north america .
I am fairly sure that most, if not all, airtankers DO NOT drop directly on a home. While it makes good press and public relations to say they do….
Water, at 10 pounds per gallon, and the mars (and the stated 5,000 working average gallons) that would be 50,000 pounds of weight being dropped on someones house. Not including the added weight of thermogel. Saving the rubble of a house is not the same as saving a house. Just imagine the public relations nightmare of destroying someones home, their belongings, their pets, or god forbid a resident with one of these drops.
Coulson had every opportunity to bid on the contract that brought in the firebosses. He also could have agreed to the as and when contract (which is fairly common in the US).
Here is something else to consider. The mars does not create safe zones. In fact it creates UNSAFE zones full of dead and downed timber. The BC forests are full of dead standing mountain pine beetle that are easily broken off and knocked down creating an increased workload and direct overhead danger to crews. These are old talking points regarding the mars that you are using Chris that are no longer relevant in todays reality.
What you SHOULD be petitioning for is more firebosses or CL-415s. Since they have been proving that they deliver more water and at a more cost effective rate.
Let the professionals do their job. Seems to me they have been saving homes without the mars just fine.
Josh, “everything dries out, nothing unburns”. Sometimes the delivery of water, gel, foam or retardant over a structure is the only don’t let it burn option. A wildland fire without a structure on fire is a challenge, but when you get a structure involved all bets are off for quick containment. Tip-of-the- day: don’t get the retardant in the swimming pool, that really makes home owners upset.
Well I for one am pro martin mars…im not saying we shouldn’t have the fireboss minis also…Its just like working on anything else…who wouldn’t want more tools at there disposal for forest fire fighting.Comparing the fireboss and the mars is kind of silly…there two totally different aircraft…with different roles and both have different strengths and weaknesses…if it was my house on the line…I would want the mars hands down
Mark, two companies bid on the BC amphibious airtanker contract. Conair was not the original company selected, but was awarded the contract when the other company could not supply the aircraft in time as per contract requirements. Could you be more specific on any lies and innuendo regarding the Mars?
Josh, no ‘as & when” contract was offered to Coulson or any other operator. The BC govt talking points that I gave the link for are not old, they were written in direct response to the petition started this past week. Airtankers and skimmers are not authorized to drop directly on any house in BC (or Canada that I’m aware of) and pilots and air attack staff will actively avoid doing so.
“The Coulson Group, the company that operates the Martin Mars, did not respond to the Province’s offer of an “as when needed” contract for the 2014 fire season.”
I copied and pasted that from the fact sheet link provided above. And as for the “old talking points”, I was referring to Chris A, the individual so vocal about bringing the mars back. I should have clarified that.
Sorry Josh, I stand corrected. You’re right about the offer of an as & when contract in 2014; I spoke too soon.
Okay, the Mars did 105000gal at Shasta lake in 7hrs but for some reason it could only do 135000 gals in 28 hrs and both Mars aircraft were in Kelowna in 2003 so whose figure’s are incorrect, the fact sheet or the USFS sheet .
I used to be a ground pounder, incident commander, and aerial coordinator. Including the mars. Those of us with first hand knowledge and experience are being ignored by the vocal few in the pro mars camp. This is evident on every article being written and having Chris – counsel elect, continue to strong arm his personal opinion (sans fire experience) everywhere. Forgive me for the long post, but this will be brief in comparison to the schooling that this topic requires.
The facts presented in the media regarding this issue arent exactly smoke and mirrors. They are data points collected and reported by first hand by firefighters, aircraft, and incident commanders. Including the mars flight crew.
Nobody is saying the aircraft wasnt effective. It was just only effective on a very limited number of fires. So few that its not financially feasible to keep on a full contract. It makes sense that if they only fly a few fires a year….that we only pay for a few fires a year. 20 fires in 6 years. BC gets 2000 fires a year. 20 fires out 12,000. Out if those 20 fires it stands to reason other water bombers would be as effective if not more. So the theory of “you cant put a price on how well the mars did on those 20 fires is moot”.
IF the fire is close to one of the 113 lakes, and IF the elevation change isnt too great, and IF conditions (wind,smoke,terrain) are favourable then it is an impressive tool. Nobody said it wasnt. However those same conditions also allow the new aircraft to outperform it. The CL-415 is even better but the fire bosses still outperform the mars. Now we get the added benefit of more lakes to use, long term retardant, landing at an airport for fuel (not refuelling on a lake , like the mars, which seems ripe for an environmental issue), and the ability to split up the aircraft to hit multiple fires.
Then there are these other talking points, more like sales pitches, that should be addressed. Particularly to Chris A. The mars never, and i really mean never, takes 27,000 litres. This is because a little thing we in the aviation world refer to as Air Density Altitude. Performance in radial piston engines is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced with higher air temperature, lower humidity, and higher the elevation. Which just so happens to be at its worst during periods of extreme fire weather. The mars will only take a portion of a load the first round and eventually be able to take a little more each time. The number reported of 19,000 litres average load is reasonable. Now add into that equation the hot BC temperatures, the significant elevation of the various mountain ranges in BC, and the limited number if lakes or water bodies available. You get an aircraft that is sluggish (in comparison) and not suitable for 99.5% of fires in BC. Which is why it sat unused so often. We cant force Mother Nature to make fires in areas suitable for the mars. Maybe we could start a petition to get her to?
Next on this list is the idea that it creates safe zones. We firefighters know that a safe zone in the middle of a forest made with water, foam, thermogel, or retardant….is not a safe zone. I wouldnt leave my neighbors yappy dog in that “safe zone”. Living in BC you should know the pine beetle epidemic an how widespread it is. Those on the ground know that these standing dead timber are all danger trees. The top third breaking off fairly easily. Having crews stand in these areas while the mars drops (or has dropped) is just plain insanity. The blowdown hazard post drop would take hours for the crew to clean up to make safe. This is also an issue when building fire line guards where the mars has dropped.
This is another issue that needs to be addressed. Crews just cant walk into the bush and put out a knocked down fire. There are safety standards and guidelines that must be met. Anchor points, access and egress routes, helipads, danger tree assessments, and danger tree falling to do before putting the fire out. This is why long term retardant is used. To buy time for crews to do their due diligence. Water bombers are used in conjunction with ground resources and heavy equipment to supplement the retardant lines. The fire bosses and CL-415s can work directly adjacent to these crews and equipment. We couldn’t do that with the mars, we had to stop for hours at a time. Then go in and deal with more work than we left it. We dont just throw water at a fire without having someone on the ground. Thats called a waste of water and time.
Now I have a few questions for Chris A. Why, if this is “the best firefighting aircraft ever built”, is it not working in areas with more workable water sources like Ontario or Quebec? If San Diego is so impressed, why isnt it there? Why are more mars airframes being built? Why was the ‘as and when, contract offer ignored? Of course these are questions that you dont have the answer to because we already know the answer. There are better tools out there.
Lastly this “its not an either or question, we can have both” comment. Sure we could being back the mars for the 1 in 600 fires we send it to. We could waste a bunch of money to appease the few communities that would get its limited benefit. But make no mistake, having this aircraft thrown into the mix is not an easy task. Some might say that organizing and managing multiple helicopters, air tankers, and ground crews is difficult enough without having to make special considerations for the lumbering mars. Clearing the helicopters out, holding other air tankers, pulling crews out, among other things….just to get the one plane in.
I really dont appreciate our opinions as ex-wildland firefighters being pushed aside so easily for political gamesmanship. I question the motivations of this politician who is such a vocal supporter of bringing the mars back. The company and owner just so happens to be based in the same small town as where he is hoping to get elected. It smells. Makes me wish my head was still buried in the smoke with a pulaski and oblivious to this.
jp
Then contract the Mars operation to Vancouver Island and free up resources to look after the rest off BC .That operation worked just fine over there for 50 yrs before the BCFS said it doesn’t work .Surely money can’t be an obstacle the MLA’s voted themselves a $600000 raise in pay after the Mars contract was canceled ,that was until the news media got a hold off it then some off it was clawed back .Not to mention the contract for 4 seat’s that is 3 times the size off what Coulson was being paid. Now if you want to shut down a firehouse because you say it doesn’t work then do it on your own time but not in my back yard because there’s going to be a time when you need it .
I’ve worked as Air Attack in BC for 15 years and have first hand knowledge working with the Mars. I won’t repeat all the reasons other posters have written previously but will add a bit of history.
The reason the Mars worked so well in the past, is that it was owned by a consortium of forest companies (Forest Industry Flying Tankers FIFT) and was used to protect their private land holdings on Vancouver Island and the coast. Cost was not an issue and the fires they fought were primarily in slash and felled timber. There generally weren’t ground crews on site (except for loggers) and the focus was to save their timber investment. In this environment, sea level-high rh-moderate temps and a great water source nearby the Mars worked. The litres (gallons) per hour concept was at work here and there are few aircraft that could match the Mars.
I’ll agree with BC Ranger in all but one small detail: cost did become an issue (falling timber revenues, softwood lumber trade disputes and a host of other reasons) and FIFT decided after an internal cost/benefit review that the Mars no longer met their operational needs. The timber companies entered into agreements with the provincial government to have the BC Wildfire Management Branch assume wildfire response on these private lands. The Mars operation was put up for sale, and the Coulson Group purchased it (fulfilling a boyhood dream, according to one interview following the sale). The Philippine Mars never flew on a wildfire again; the Hawaii Mars soldiered on until 2013.
Some notes about the evolution of the Mars saga:
The Martin Mars never competed for a contract in British Columbia. She was used on an ‘as & when’ basis by the govt when owned by Flying Tankers Inc and later on, by FIFT. She was awarded a series of one-year no-compete contracts for a guaranteed 45 hours per season when owned by the Coulson Group from 2007-2013. The Coulson Group requested to be released from its BC contract in 2009 after the USFS decided to use it on a one-year trial basis in California.
The Mars, under the Coulson banner, was always flown and supported by highly respected, professional crews. The front-line staff consistently gave top-notch customer service. The operation was improved by the Coulson Group in the form of advanced aircraft avionics and a mobile, highly-functioning fleet of support and maintenance vehicles that enabled extended operations away from the Sproat Lake home base. However, these improvements did not materially improve the performance and delivery capabilities of a beautiful but aging 1940s piston-engined aircraft. The province of BC decided – like FIFT had done beforehand – that the cost/benefit did not match stated requirements. The USFS presumably made a similar decision following their one-year contract with the Mars.
The new FireBoss group was never intended to replace the Martin Mars; the business case was created and approved based upon its ability to reduce the province’s reliance on very expensive heavy helicopters. That remains its role today, and so far, the new group has been very successful in meeting its performance expectations within BC and on export outside the province. This is a very important point (helicopter substitute) that wasn’t fully addressed within the BC government’s publicly-released document.
The competition for the new amphibious group was issued in 2013. All operators were given informal notice of the impending Request up to two years beforehand, and formal notice more than a year in advance. The competition was open to all parties worldwide who could supply the basic need: multiple (more than one), amphibious (capable of landing & taking off from land or water), turbine (not piston) engined water-skimming aircraft.
Eligible aircraft included the FireBoss, CL-215T/415 and the Beriev 200, provided the latter achieved Canadian certification in time.
Only two companies responded to the Request; both submitted bids for four FireBoss aircraft.
The Martin Mars is a glorious airplane with a rich 70-year history in military and firefighting service. She is a beautiful machine and I, for one, will miss the sight and sound of her overhead. But all good things come to an end, and it’s time we all stopped casting blame on the end of an era, especially those who know so little about the facts at hand. The Mars will no longer fly on wildfires in BC, or probably anywhere else in North America. It doesn’t matter how many uninformed citizens sign a petition. Stop blaming the government, stop blaming the Wildfire Mgmt Branch, stop blaming the other aircraft types, stop blaming the competing companies and stop blaming the Premier. OK, you can blame the Premier, nobody likes her. It’s a backlash against her that likely garnered so many petitioners to sign in the first place.
Nothing can take away from the impressive nature of the Mars. But she was no longer a suitably efficient and effective firefighter. May we remember her warmly, rather than with so much negative emotion.
Nobodys blaming anyone…its just taxpayers entitled to see what they want working for them and there money.So if they want a petition let them go for it..I for one will sign it
That argument, while technically correct in a democratic society, just plain doesn’t make sense. It is telling of what is wrong in our entitled western society, namely that for a plethora of reasons the public has lost faith with the professional community.
It should be enough that the professional wildfire aviation decision-makers should be both experts in their fields and have the taxpayer and environment as principal stakeholders in their selection. However, everyone with an internet connection and an opinion feels entitled to armchair IC and that their opinion is THE answer.
Yup, I see the irony.
At the end of the day, the Martin Mars is a relic from the days where land managers were pulling fireline staff out of the local bars. That was “effective” too but i’m sure no one is suggesting we add that tool back into the box.
You are right…well just continue using the new convairs and electras
Hey lee
“Leave the operational decisions to the fire experts.”
I LIKE it so much from down here in the Lower 48 …..and reading these exchanges…..
How ‘boot this one for the land land management agencies in both the US and Canada…..
Let the AVIATION experts handle the flying and maintenance issues and the folks “managing the aviation assets” JUST listen to those experts?
LUV the exchanges from all you folks and I see the validity and expense of the Mars and I also watched at Wipaire in South St Paul, MN each time a new ‘Boss came out of the hangar when I was getting my Commercial and Instrument rating..
So coming from a forester and former helo mech…..once again…..there are only a few purpose built aircraft for FIRE…allllllll the rest……expensive conversions and STC’s on both sides of the border……
But reading the “bitching” fun, too in between beers, Martinis, and mojitos!
Cheers to all the aviation folks who supported the Mars…….a great ship, expensive, but the lumber companies saw a gem when they had it…..
Now only if in the US we could get a program with folks who had real operational aviation knowledge and not just some 30 to 60 year “tribal knowledge” gained through just seasonal fire knowledge, but real industry operations…….then we down here could have one helluva program
Oh……all it takes is money, eh? Or has somebody been BSing me all these years??
Mark stated: “sorry fellas , but shutting down a firehouse that is being offered to Gov. for the cost off doing the maintenance with a $ 4000 hourly rate for the first 45hrs as per fact sheet just makes no sense to me in the world off cutback’s and a volatile forest .”
Mark, that figure does not include the cost of fuel nor the daily availability rate, which is paid regardless if the airplane flies that day or not. Availability rates are standard in pretty much every aviation asset under contract in the firefighting world, unless the asset is owned by the contracting agency. The annual cost paid to the Coulson Group, when analyzed against the actual usage of the Mars, did not warrant continued use of the airplane.
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