Recent facebook post by Murry, re-posted with permission and slightly edited; he spent 26 years as a smokejumper followed by 22 seasons on a Cal Fire lookout, and he theorizes that much of the public land in the West has burned because we’re under-utilizing smokejumpers.
Guest post by MURRY TAYLOR
Since 2020 smokejumpers have averaged only 4.5 fire jumps each season. That’s a terrible under-utilization of an important firefighting resource. In the past we easily jumped twice that many, and some years four times as many. I’ve seen it many times while on the Duzel Rock lookout southeast of Happy Camp, California — fires were not staffed for a day or two and then went big and cost tens or even hundreds of millions while the jumpers sat unused.
There seems to be a lack of understanding among fire managers in the Forest Service about the capability of these jumpers. Dispatchers have said they didn’t put jumpers on a fire because the “trees were too tall,” or the “winds were too strong.” Clearly they didn’t understand that jumpers carry 150-foot let-down ropes, and they have a spotter in the plane throwing streamers, so they know EXACTLY what the wind is like over the fire.
The good news is that things seem to be changing for the better. Allowing jumpers to get back to 10-plus fire jumps per season would save big money and lots of acres. For those who think we need to get more fire back on the land, all I can say is, Don’t worry, there’s going to be plenty of that given the way fires burn now. The policy of putting ALL these early season fires out while small would be a big help. That way, when August — the toughest part of fire season — arrives, the handcrews wouldn’t be exhausted and scattered all over hell, and the skies wouldn’t be filled with smoke so that Air Ops are critically limited.
Jumpers and hotshots tell me that Yes, sometimes the fuels and new fire weather are factors in making fires harder to catch. But MOSTLY, they say, there’s always something that can be done to catch these fires if they are hit while small.
The Rogue River–Siskiyou National Forest in southern Oregon has taken a more aggressive approach to putting fires out when small. In the last three seasons they’ve had 192 fires and burned only 50 acres. This was achieved by pre-positioning jumpers during lightning storms, better utilization of rappellers, and contract fire resources.
I wrote a post on this topic a couple years ago. Over and over, while on the Duzel Rock lookout, I’ve heard that certain fires weren’t attacked early because the country was “too steep and too rough.”
Short haul program for fire insertion and extraction is an even better method of delivery of fire fighters at least on small fires . Mesa Verde helitack has been doing it for a few years . Conducted their first ops on the San Juan last summer . Effective program that needs to be expanded . Utilizes the B3E heli with an engine that does not quit . Stats show it!
Jumper injury rates have increased since the transition to square chutes, many of them on proficiency jumps, which may not be reflected in that (dated) publication. NCSB’s own base manager sustained an injury on the last jump of his career in 2022. It might not be on a fire, but a broken pelvis is still gonna end your fire season. The jump program repeatedly destroys young people’s fire careers during rookie training and never faces the same level of scrutiny as other programs. There is a lack of accountability here that needs to be addressed, for firefighters as well as taxpayers.
THANKS RG, and I see your point, but I cannot find any documentation except for old documentation, and apparently even Murry can’t. If you find any recent numbers, will you please let me know? Thanks …
Curious Non Producer, Your comment about the Rogue River-Sisk. N.F. IA failing is flat ridiculous. You can’t catch all these fires, some are bound to go big fast and from the looks of the country and the fuels, I’m guessing this Flat fire was one of those. Successful IA does NOT mean you catch ALL your fires. Most all experienced people in fire know that. For now, I’ll wait and see what comes out about this particular IA. I suggest you do the same. In the meantime, where did you get the info. to support this statement: “. . . 2017 Chetco Bar Fire where the Fire Management Officer sat on his hands after a jump plane circled the fire at 5 acres. He turned them away — he’s not familiar with how smokejumpers operate.” Let me know because from what I’ve understood it’s not true. I’m serious, if you know the source, let me know. For damn sure the IA on the Chetco Bar fire was pathetic. BUT that was BEFORE the current IA strategy was put into play 3-4 years ago. It’s important to give these guys credit where due. Loose comments don’t help advance a better public understanding.
Frank got banned, Murry.
Don’t be like Frank.
https://wildfiretoday.com/2009/02/13/comments-we-love-comments-but-here-are-the-rules/
Also, we’re not going to argue here about the Chetco Bar Fire. You can take that to facebook.
Murry, it looks like the Rogue has failed at IA on the Flat Fire. It’s 5000+ acres and growing. Can you tell me how the RS initial attack program is so successful?
Your quote “The Rogue River–Siskiyou National Forest in southern Oregon has taken a more aggressive approach to putting fires out when small. In the last three seasons they’ve had 192 fires and burned only 50 acres. This was achieved by pre-positioning jumpers during lightning storms, better utilization of rappellers, and contract fire resources.”
Looks like the IA didn’t work.. why didn’t they jump it? Did they rappel it? Did they do anything? Reminds me of the 2017 Chetco Bar Fire where the Fire Management Officer sat on his hands after a jump plane circled the fire at 5 acres. He turned them away — he’s not familiar with how smokejumpers operate. Maybe the fire management has no idea how to put the fires out. Rogue S did not stop this as an IA it was a devastating and has highly public ridicule towards the forest circus.
Thomas Emonds did you ever work in a position where you get to “Look behind the curtain” so to speak? I’ve learned that all us ops guys that see things in our 2 dimensionsal black and white world don’t quite grasp the 3 dimensionial world that our FMOs, AA’s, and all the other people that make decisions about fire operations work in. While riding in your jump ship and getting sent back to the base there may have been 15 questions and decisions made about how to deal with that fire. Some transparency helps a lot in these situations but when you are dealing with forest and regional decisions making and risk management. That is akin to a rookie demanding to know every detail and reasoning from the supt. Just not realistic.
Yes there are a lot of people making decisions about fire management that have absolutely no understanding of how or why , and the FMO “manager types” you mentioned are doing their best to convey and teach these people on how and why they need what they need. Let’s not forget the “FMO” manager types started as a FFT2 just like the rest of us and worked their way up the chain. It’s a never ending challenge trying to work with these folks that don’t have a grasp on how firefighting works. Quite often feels pointless but we keep trying.
It’s easy to to point fingers and complain without ever standing in an office trying to make things happen with a ranger that can’t decide what they want for lunch much less how to deal with fire management. Or they go to an hour lunch when we have resources in the air or en route that require a decision made by them….
I’d much rather be hiking in front of a couple dozers punching line but…oh well.
I have had jumpers staff my engine and my mod in the past. Its actually fairly common. Most are looking for OT and training opportunities. Pays dividends to have your folks rubbing elbows with experienced firefighters regardless of what their day job is, goes both ways. The first ten years of my career was spent on crews T2IA and IHC and unfortunately I had a pretty low opinion of district engines. Got my eyes opened when I went to work on an engine. Turns out most roll around with a Captain that is DIVS or TFLD, C fallers, and multiple single resources qualified folks, and will put in great work. Most had IHC experience and ran throw together crews at some point in their careers. Jumpers are a great IA resource that should be utilized in whatever capacity is available even if that means staffing out district resources. Ultimately it helps with interoperability and puts more slides in the deck for all involved.
One of the best fire books ever written, an engine crew:
https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Ben-Walters/dp/061555248X/
I can see the smokejumper supervisor asking for volunteers to staff an engine, and everybody’s hand shoot up at once… not. I think all the bragging about the Rogue-Siskiyou IA success jinxed them (maybe the SMJ’s were all in Canada?).
Incident Name Flat Incident Number OR-RSF-000209
Location 2 miles southeast of Agness, OR Acres 4,000
Start Date 2023-07-15 Cause Undetermined
Percent Contained 0% Estimated Containment Date 2023-09-01
Residences Threatened30
Other Structure Threatened12
Fuel/Terrain Timber, chaparral, grass and understory Lead Agency USDA Forest Service
There’s a fire with the potential to go big.
What year was that big fire near Oak Flat and Agness? They had to evacuate and re-evacuate people numerous times …
I was a smokejumper for 24 seasons had 526 rough terrain jumps. 300 + jumps on rounds and just under 200 jumps on Ram Air chutes or squares. never had a serious injury only had one boo boo where I was off the jump list for one day, and that was on a round fire jump. There is a reason 6,000 Russian Smokejumpers use Ram Air Parachutes. And if you ask people who have had a couple hundred jumps on both types of chutes, a great factual opinion question; would be to ask them, if they had a choice, What would they choose to parachute into forested, rough terrain in.
From what I’ve seen in my career as a smokejumper is the stark reality is how few injuries I saw in the number of how many parachute jumps were made by my fellows into really dangerous looking situations of tall trees, rocky hidden by brush, simply terrifying places to land. In this day and age of high drought codes and stronger fire conditions we need more smokejumpers not less.
The real bad thing going against initial attack is so many dispatchers, and fire leaders in offices trying to make decisions regarding what their imaginations, (and not actually being out there over the fire), were being able to come up with. As a spotter over a fire, I was told several times not to drop jumpers, that they had a helicopter coming to the fire. I saw no helicopter coming and was told to head back to base, (when That fire was clearly heading across a trail and soon to be un-catchable). Later after work hours they, the same Ranger District, would call and request jumpers on a nightmare inferno that we’d jump the entire base on.
Too many people were always trying to save money to either justify their own career or justifying the need for another resource. The same type of thinking led to the closing of the Siskiyou Smokejumper Base. Only when they closed the jumper base, and ended up not using smokejumpers, did they start having huge multi-million dollar fires in the Southern Oregon Wilderness areas. The new people coming in forgot the old concept of using jumpers. The ecosystem that proved to be the rocky brush covered Kalmeopsis turned into an even worse wildfire area 8 to 10 years after the famous Biscuit Fire. The hardwood coppice re-sprouting, the weeds, hedges and various pioneer species that came in proved to be wanting to burn even more to keep fostering more ample fire wants than the expert fire ecologists ever were able to justify to fit into the theory that fire was better for the world than all the people who were now whining about smoke.
Murry Taylor is right about smokejumpers being under-used. We need more of them not less. Less admin types, and office managers, experts who really don’t know much. Above all we need more of the society to become wildfire adapted. Able to understand that they need to be able to understand how to save their own holdings, because the climate has changed things and the federal, state and local fire departments can no longer protect the vast number of homes and towns built into the fuels. They can still handle quite well the easy fires, but not the extreme fire storms that are coming with this Global Climate Change in all its random intensity.
Like my old Boss the Legendary Mick Swift once said. Cheer up boys and girls, someday someone will come up with the bright idea to drop fire fighters from airplanes and parachutes to put out fires faster before they get big.
I am curious if orders were made for all of the IA’s you are talking about would there be enough jumpers available at the base or would they be UTF because they are on single resource or overhead assignments? Or would it be a delayed IA from another base that isn’t in the immediate area? Any stats available? It would seem at least some contingent of jumpers should be held as a regional IA resource in each western region regardless of conditions if we want to hammer these IA’s. The possibility of a sleeper lightning tree in a low fire danger month should be staffed by jumpers so there is no possibility of it growing. I would further say jumpers should limit the amount of personnel available to support large IMT fires to 5-10% of the total workforce and once we are at a PL4-5 not be allowed to support large fires period unless they are working on a priority taskbook as we all need to be able to continue our career development (Of course the need for para cargo delivery. jumping to protect remote structures, etc , specialized missions ordered by a type 1-3 IC would not be held back). Right tool for the right job. Use the IHC’s and T2IA to hammer the large fires, they are set up for it. If there are roughly 400-500 jumpers per year that is roughly 40-50 10 person IA mods just as an example. A force to be reckoned with that requires a little less support and guidance than the typical district IA mod. This would also provide a quick framework for type 3 extended attack fires until the IA Jumpers can be relieved and sent back to wait for new starts. If local districts are struggling to keep their IA resources staffed the jumpers could fill in as needed on engines and handcrew mods instead of going out on large fire support. The key here is keeping these specialized initial attack firefighters engaged in initial attack to keep these fires small and not overwhelming the system. I for one would be happy to have a jumper come staff an engine or run a mod for a roll or for just a couple days. Just a few thoughts. Cheers
JK, That smokejumper telling you they carried morphine in the plane is interesting but, from what I know, is not true. There was a time way back–maybe in the ’80’s– when jumpers carried Demoral in the plane and used it when jumpers had broken bones and other serious injuries. That all ended with Ronald Reagan’s War on Drugs. I’m not aware that any drugs are carried on jumpships these days. I’m in touch with them all the time and so I think I’d have heard of it if they did. My big interest here in these posts is NOT just the increased use of jumpers but a serious increase in strong, rapid initial attack to keep as many fires small as possible. In the heart of fire season, many will escape initial containment and go big. It’s nearly impossible to stop that. That’s what makes catching all the others as soon as possible so important.
Several of the comments here make it clear that many fire personnel are making the same mistake that many managers and dispatchers are making, namely, that the smokejumpers have a high injury rate when they don’t. Coming to the conclusion that there are high injury numbers because it seems like that would be true is not a logical way to approach this issue. (It’s the same faulty reasoning as saying that because helicopters have a higher rate of malfunction than fixed wing, therefore, rapellers must have more injuries than smokejumpers.) Murry is correct that initial attack needs to be better utilized. The fire seasons are going to continue to get worse. ALL of the IA resources need more aggressive implementation by managers to minimize total acreage burned and to reduce the number of highly destructive problem fires we are seeing across the west.
I was a jumper for 8 years and a rappeller for 4 years so I’ll add my 2 cents worth. If jumpers are only getting an average of 4 1/2 fire jumps per season, that is a serious underutilization of a valuable national shared resource. Jumpers and rappellers are both excellent IA resources, each has it’s place. The critical point that seems to be missing on this thread is that aggressive initial attack AND extended attack of fires during the peak western fire season is what keeps burned acreage levels down. Unfortunately, the USFS and BLM now have a much smaller surge capacity for initial and extended attack than they did in the 70s and 80s, when megafires were almost non-existent. Hence, more fires now escape initial and extended attack than in the past. During extreme burning conditions, once a fire escapes extended attack, the federal land management agencies are not well equipped to minimize acreage burned. I have been a DIVS and OPS3 on numerous fires in recent years. In a PL5 management level, you never have enough of the resources you need to aggressively suppress large fires. In a PL5, it is normal nowadays to be told that the critical resource orders you placed for your division will not be filled for the duration of your assignment. Hotshot crews are now getting worked to death because IMTs constantly move them around to the areas of greatest threat, easy days for shot crews are a rarity anymore. There are just too few of our overworked hotshot crews and agency engine crews to go around. Many of the resources you do get are poorly skilled contract and emergency hire resources, which greatly limit what you can accomplish. You simply cannot place many of these low-skill resources in high-tempo situations where a high level of skill, competence, and trust are required. So, big box is frequently the only option that fireline supervisors have. If you can’t go direct with the resources you have, then you have to go big box, and you have to make the box big enough that it will be ready before the main fire arrives. This is the real problem; compared to the 1980s, we now have about 1/4 of the firefighting resources that were formerly available in days past, and a sizable percentage of those resources are just not very good. To be fair, a very small percentage of contractors such as Greyback generally field pretty good crews and engines, but many do not.
Underutilization: In 1968 I trained at Redding, California as a smokejumper. I had missed the fact that fire jumps were usually four to eight per year, maybe. Coming from the Sierra N.F. as a helitack (helijumper) it wasn’t uncommon to respond to and take action on over thirty fire per month during the summer months. Today I still beat-myself-up thinking I should have stayed. Left the Forest Service after ten years, went to work for Aero Union and finished my career with thirty seven years with CDF (CalFire). Yep, I should have stayed.
So many comments here, some really astute. I really like Ted Stubblefield’s comment about needing both rappellers and jumpers. Each are valuable in their own way. Russian smokejumpers do both. Also, good views from Mike McMillan here. What I’m pushing for is simply stronger IA, and an increased use of jumpers can play a big part in that. Here’s some stats. from the Rogue River-Siskiyou N.F. on the fires since they employed their own aggressive IA program in 2020. That included prepostioning of jumpers during lightning storms, increasing the number of their rappellers, and in high fire danger, bringinn on private engines, etc. This forest has shown how it can be done and now the Klamath seems to be on the same track. Here is a brief note from the FMO up there and the stats:
Afternoon Murray, below are the stats you asked for on our call. I would just add that we are proud of our initial attack stance that allows our firefighters to respond quickly and safely while they work hard to keep fires small.
2020 39 fires for 6 acres
2021 62 fires for 55
2022 80 fires for 20 acres
2023 22 fires for 7 acres
The article on this came out in Wildfire Today about a year ago. It’s titled: Standing Tall, Makiing a Difference. I think you can check it out in the archives.
Injuries happen on while employees are assigned to wildfires, working prescribed fires, project work, detailed into another job, etc, and they happen in training. Separating out between fire and non-fire injuries can provide skewed comparisons. Example: A Helitack foreman taking an assignment as ATGS(T) gets in a car wreck while on an out-of-state assignment (is that injury a fire injury?) Their medical and comp was charged to the fire number on their Resource Order. They are helitack, so it gets lumped with helicopter ops. Since they were an ATGS(T) at the time of injury, it gets lumped with Aviation, non-helitack. Medical expenses and Workman’s Comp expense totals per total employees assigned to different jobs may be hard (but not impossible) to calculate, since so many are “Forestry Technician” or “Range Technician” series. So numbers, severity, and outcomes of injuries quoted are not always apples to apples.
Also, I would add that using operational jumps/year/SMKJ is sort of an odd way to get at the number of operational smoke jumps per year nationally, which would be a clearer metric of the utilization of the SMKJ program and generally is weak support for Mr. Murrays point.
The jumps/year/SMKJ could be skewed by certain portion of the national SMKJ program SMKJ’s jumping a large number of fires.
Some stats that would better support Mr. Taylors point:
– 5-10-20 year operational jumps with a trend line. (Break it out by AK vs. lower 48 if you really want to get at the point)
– Overhead assignments per year or days per year on a large fire (IE- SKMJ’s are often highly line qualified, were they being utilized/prioritized nationally for their line qualifications during high large fire load years? Are SMKJ’s asking to be assigned to OH assignments vs jump standby so they can pay their bills?)
Stating that the smokejumper parachute operation injury rate is “low” is useless unless you are comparing it against the other delivery methods firefighters use to arrive at a fire.
So….whats the injury rate for the other modes? Everyone is typically hiking at some point, so it would be helicopter flight to landing, helicopter rappel to touchdown, engine/crew until they dismount…
Similarly, saying “smokejumpers have a lower fireline injury rate” is fairly useless and notably, does not provide any evidence to support the statement. Is that per hour on the fireline, per hour worked per year?
I assume there are close to 1000 jumps per year occurring, so on average there are 3 SMKJ being seriously injured in training or operations per year?
Super valuable, super experienced resource, but I think it’s fair to clearly and objectively evaluate the risks.
I appreciate Mike Mc Millian’s comments I really do, there is a tremendous amount of history with the jumpers. and yes it was very much cutting-edge stuff. And I know that they bring a lot to the table, and yes some would argue that they are the best of us.
After 38 years I have developed an opinion, one that I did not arrive to overnight.
I cannot dispute the injury rate given to us from the SMKJ brochure, it just seems like it was much higher to me because we heard of injuries, I recall one of my people who went on to jump shared a few stories with me, not sure if he was pulling my leg but he said they carry morphine, which at face value makes sense to me.
I would never single out the folks that jump and make them out to be anything less than standup folks and very Savy FF’s….
I am retired, maybe I should find something else to do rather than going on these rants of mine, I mean no disrespect…..Just an old proud hotshot that still has an opinion or three…..lol…..I’m out…..
A good friend of mine was IA on the Hayman Fire. You could’ve dropped 50 jumpers on it and not caught it.
On June 26, 1940, weeks before their first operational fire jumps, Chet Derry, Rufus Robinson, and Glenn Smith parachuted into a forest near Seely Lake, Montana. Their audience: four U.S. Army Officers on the brink of entering WWII, eager to learn whatever they could that smokejumpers already knew about jumping into unimproved terrain. The year before in 1939, the U.S. Forest Service contracted 16 men to prove that parachuting and dropping paracargo could be done into forests, an “experiment” spearheaded by David Godwin, a bold and innovative senior USFS official. For 40 years afterward until 1982 (and well beyond), the round parachute delivered firefighters to thousands of fires – some already staffed, most unstaffed. In 1982, Ex-Army Ranger Jim Veitch revolutionized smokejumping when his team completed years of work transitioning BLM’s Alaska Smokejumpers from the round to the square parachute. Stable in high winds, steerable, low malfunction rate, and a dependable reserve, it remains an extremely safe delivery system – to condemn it would mean helicopters and air tankers are next, with far more fatalities than smokejumping.
Ignoring smokejumpers is easy – they are nearly unseen. Misunderstanding their value when they stop a half-acre fire from turning into a campaign fire – talk about lowering human risk. When they land on their feet next to that T6 engine or road near that “catchable” fire, they bring a lot to an incident, including single-resource qualifications, cargo, and courage. If they are not needed, they’ll gladly leave. Just tell them so.
Disliking smokejumpers is almost always a personal choice, maybe someone’s best gal or guy “stolen” by one, but always funny, kind of sad. Why don’t people express a rational dislike for tanker pilots or helicopter pilots with such conviction? Maybe there really are just two kinds of firefighters after all.
People like Godwin and Veitch were direly-needed pioneers in wildfire, paving the way for more than 6,000 Americans to serve the USA as smokejumpers. I jumped to 177 wildfires in 17 years from 1996-2012. I never had a parachute malfunction, I had few “hard landings”, and with few exceptions I was needed where I went. I also mobilized to many wildfires without my parachutes – we called those “pounders” and I had many. Injuries and fatalities of smokejumpers? Look at the air tanker and helicopters, or please don’t.
Culture-wise, and operationally speaking, the smokejumpers I worked with then and now are among the best firefighters I know. Some are also becoming pilots (rotors, fixed, UAS). They’re adapting to an epoch in wildfire suppression challenged by cloudy priorities/perceptions of safety and fire “use”. Let’s go direct.
I think we need both rappelers and jumpers; each for different situations. There’s little value in arguing “which is better or more appropriate” in today’s World.
The REAL problems is when Line Officers are clueless about each fire resource, and their FMOs aren’t much better. The result being wasted talent.
To All here on this comment thread:
Lots of comments here but not sure they do much to address the issue directly. Certainly there are lots of roads now and less area where jumping is appropriate. But here’s the thing, several fires that went WAY BIG had a chance to put jumpers on them and they were turned down. Take the Hayman fire in Colorado in 2002. A jumpship was 30 miles south when that fire started. The spotter radioed in that he had a eight-man load and could respond. He was turned down. Who knows if they could have made a difference but turning them down seems crazy. The Hayman fire burned nearly 138,000 acres—including 60,000 in just one day—and destroyed more than 600 structures, including 133 houses. Then, look at that fire a few years ago in the Bitterrroots of Montana, east of Lolo Pass. A jumpship was returning from a dry run over in Idaho, saw the fire and told dispatch (I think in Missoula) that they could jump it. Dispatch responded saying, A jump in that country would be a suicide mission. Ridiculous! I jumped the Bittterroots and they are rugged but totally jumpable. That fire went big and burned 55,000 acres, a few homes, and killed one hotshot. These are just TWO of the many stories of fires were jumpers were available and turned down. Unless changes take place this pattern will likely continue with same results.
JK: You seem to think that smokejumper injuries are very high. I’m wondering where you got that impression/info? Please let me know. Here are a few stats. I found:
Injury Rates — — 25-yrs 2017 1992 to 2017 — Practice and Fire jumps, 0.04% 0.29% 0.10% 0.37% Serious Rate 0.02% 0.07% 0.06% 0.28%.
— The national rate of injury for Forest Service Smokejumpers is on average around .11% or 1 per 909 jumps. Of these 75% are minor injuries. Serious injuries are those requiring 48 or more hours in a hospital, a fracture or dislocation.
— The national rate of injury for Forest Service Smokejumpers performing parachute operations is on average .7% or 7 per 1000 jumps.
The .11% or 1 per 909 jumps. And off these 75% are minor injuries comments seem most relevant to me. That’s a VERY low injury rate. This is not suprising to me. During my 27 seasons I always felt jumper injury rates were VERY Low, and these stats. indicate that that is true. I only know of 6 deaths due to problems with the actual jump, and that includes Malcolm Brown in 1945, one of the 555th Black cadre of jumpers back then. I was present at two of those deaths, Tom Regenitter in ’70, and Dave Liston in 2000. Sad as that is, it’s still only 6 fatalilies in 83 years of parachuting to wildfires. As I said above, if you have different info, due let me know. All the best.
https://gacc.nifc.gov/nrcc/dispatch/overhead/Smokejumper_User_Guide.pdf
Smokejumpers are firefighters just like the rest of us. Most jumpers need to come to terms with that.
It’s not an FMO’s responsibility to make sure jumpers get ten jump fires per year, and it certainly isn’t a dispatcher’s call. There are a lot of reasons why jumpers are used less today than in the past, and many of the previous posters have already addressed those (more roads, more resources, other resources able to respond more quickly, etc.). I would also add the new normal of fires showing extreme fire behavior on initial attack and more awareness of risk vs. reward. It’s not hard to understand why jumpers are still the primary initial attack resource in Alaska, but not in the L48. Smokejumpers are a tool in the box, and they have their place. But they’re not the only tool in the box and they’re not more important than everyone else. Sending jumpers when other resources make more sense, just to hook up the bros, is poor fire management.
Hey Muray may I suggest getting in touch with the US Hotshot Association about maybe looking at suggesting some sort of publication, I know it would have merit, and maybe even bring the fire community that much closer.
We all have our stories, some good some not so good, I have two short ones for you, I am sure you have heard them before, as there is nothing new under the sun. First one is very funny, I was a first year shot Forman, we were in Idaho(1994) deep in the back country, we could drive within 2-3 miles of the fire in a dilapidated bus, Jumpers had hit the fire the day before, not real sure the size, maybe 25-30 acres, timber understory, we hiked in tied in w/ the jumpers, figured out the turf thing and went to work, maybe 2-3 days in the jumper may have got a re supply, food etc, we were eating MRE’s 3 squares a day, deliciousness, one of our saw teams stumbled across their food boxes hidden in the brush, they helped themselves to just a little jerky and maybe some dried fruit thinking they would not miss it, wrong…they must have that stuffed weighed to the exact last gram, they called us out, they may have got only a grin from us, it worked its self out, we were on that fire for many days, let’s just say there was a good bit of healthy competition between us, on the last day we powered hiked out nearly side by side, if I recall it was a draw, we all enjoyed the hot springs that were near our little spike camp….that was a good time….
First year Supt, we are in R-1, we are assigned to a small fire in red fur, 5-10 acres, we have a couple of dist engines and a contract dozer, we work all day and night, we have shaky containment by sunup, we spread out and hold what we got, by mid-morning they were calling us off the line to get ready for the next one, I tried to explain to them that we should stay put until relieved by adequate resource, there were none, remember 2000 in R-1 yeehaw, I explained to them that we thought it would not hold, yep we hear you, come on down….we go down to the DO and try one more time to no avail, by 1-2 pm that afternoon it was punching a big ol header….it’s hard to see your work go up in smoke, we are vested….And yes we get paid by the hour…..
Muray…We do not have to agree w/ one another and I am way OK with that, if everyone agreed with me every time, I opened my mouth, I cringe just thinking about, we just need balance and be respectful to each other….Peace……
Disclaimer, some of my recall may be a bit off…. only because it was 20-30 years ago, nearly 100% accurate……lol…..
Don’t put not using jumpers on a fire on dispatch-to use them or not is really a duty officer call. I’ve worked with some-it was a good and professional experience-and some that were a pain in the butt.
I do remember detailing into one place that loved jumpers. Single tree lightning strike up on the mountain. We can see it and wanted to hike to it and put it out. FMO shot down that idea and asked for jumpers. After what seemed like an eternity they jump it, land in the meadow next to the road within a stone’s throw of the engine. The lead jumper looks over at us, sighs, then they proceed to hike up to the fire. That still makes me laugh 15 years later.
The smoker jumper program is a awesome piece of history for the west and the USFS. But lets all be real for a minute its a program that doesn’t really need to be around anymore due to the Rappeler programs. Far to many injuries’ year after year after year.
When your favorite tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
JK, Interesting comments from you here. I don’t agree with some but that’s fine. For now I’d like to address the idea of a Hotshot magazine. A great idea. So many jumpers came to jumpers from the Shots and I have much respect for all the strong hotshot crews. So much that the main focus of Too Steep and Too Rough focuses on a fictional shot crew from Wyoming. The story profiles much of what I hear from some of the shot people, being held back too much, overhead not listening to Hotshot Supervisors, etc. For example, I think it was two years ago in Montana a hotshot crew of which I’m quite familiar was held in firecamp for three days and told their fire was too dangerous to work. The Supe decided to take a look for himself and drove out and hiked into the fire with his Captain. They hiked the perimeter then went back to camp and told the overhead that they just walked the fire and could do effective work. They were given (I think it was) an engine, a dozer, and another shot crew, went in and caught that fire at 200 acres. This is JUST ONE of the many stories that I’ve heard from these guys. I hear a lot from these people because of my book, Jumping Fire. Let’s keep working on this. There’s way too much back off and slack off these days while fires go big.
Bob S. The Klamath N.F. used to have rappellers. Sadliy, that’s not the case anymore. Maybe they’ll be back next year. I hope so. A rappelle crew recently came to the KNF from Weaverville and worked a fire. I’m checking out these claims about smokejumper injuries. It’s always been my view that it’s very low.
Let’s say 8 jumpers on a plane. Chances are there is at least one Type 3 IC, probably three Type 4 ICs, and the rest Type 5s with a trainee or two. Most would likely by C fallers or maybe even a C certifier in the mix. Most of them came off Hotshot crews. Probably carried a saw on the crew most years. Had to make it through 6 weeks of rookie training to show they wanted to be there and can make critical decisions on their own. Probably should look into how much a Type 2 helicopter contract costs let alone maintenance and flight hours. Each resource has its place. More rappelled = more cost and qual efficient? I highly doubt that.
Bob S., Militia Bro, Mariah Fire and others,
We can see it for what it is, and just maybe those up the food chain do as well, but we know it’s here to stay, it’s great for PR, folks swoon when they here that the SMKJ’s are here…makes for interesting stories…..
With so many issues facing our FF’s this does not rate very high, how many jumpers do we have, has to be less than 500…..a very small fraction of the maybe other10,000…..one thing is true, they are some great folks.
My only real concern is the delivery system, it’s so very flawed….except maybe in the tundra country….
When was the last time the 101st Airborne jumped into battle, I do not know, but I am thinking June 6th 1944…..Just saying that maybe they do not use it that much these days….I have no way of knowing for sure, just an educated guess….you see warfighters sliding down ropes, at least in the movies you do…..
I seem to remember a study conducted by/for the Forest Service titled Aerial Delivery of Firefighters back around the 2010’s? I remember it because it was supposed to be a cost analysis of programs that used many parameters to determine efficiency. I am an AOBD and was really disappointed when the final version came out and completely avoided conclusions about which was most cost effective. I remember thinking that it must have been overseen by a number of ex-jumpers because it avoided answering the questions most wanted answered. But as alluded to above, I agree that down here in the lower 48, jumping is not as cost effective as it once was. There’s so many roads all over the place now that driving to an IA is probably most cost effective. An in most places helicopter response times are much faster to insert rappelers, avoiding the orbit times setting up the jump. It is a legacy bro program that won’t die as long as there are former jumpers up the fire and aviation food chain.
As a local IA resource, our militia crew twice drove and hiked to small lightening fires where jumpers were ordered and dropped. We beat them both times. We were not strong or dialed in.
The first one, we are chunking line around it and this bro rolls in with a Pulaski and a wolf graphic tee shirt – no pack, no hardhat, nothing but a Pulaski and a smile. Awesome dude but unconventional. A vast majority of the Bro’s I have worked with have been awesome men and woman but they all been assigned to big fires working on quals.
Murray and I will disagree on a lot. Keeping all fires small got us here in this unbalanced place. Jump them more, sure. That’s one of our small issues.
Wait, there’s a Smoke Jumper Magazine, these folks are doing everything they can to sell the program, they used to come to our workshops, with quite the marketing brochures, mainly because all the R-5 FMO’s were there……When is someone going to start a Hotshot magazine, that’s the one I want in my mailbox, heck I am sure I could recall a few good stories where the shots saved the day…..
I think it would be interesting to see the stats, a real cost analysis…..I am sure there is one that is complete sitting on someone’s desk……eye’s only…..lol…..
I need to look into some of these books that are out there, any recommendations. I always thought I would like to write a book about excuses, I think I may have heard them all, and there are some good ones out there…….I think it would be maybe a little bit different reading a book on fire having spent 38 yrs. doing it, but if there are a few out there that ring true and sincere, I will give them a shot…..No CBS Fire Country nonsense…..
Now that I really think about it, I would imagine that a great many of us would have some great stories to tell, I know that for a fact, and I would read those books……We need a Hotshot magazine….
Happy Camp and Scott Valley have rappelers. Closer by about 100 miles than SMJ’s. Closest resource. Familiar with local conditions, fuels, adjacent resources availability, dispatch protocols, etc. The 4.5 jumps per year average does not say how many fires the average SMJ’s were on that season, as other than jumped into the fire (other OH assignments, drove vehicles to the fire, working in the loft on fire numbers for pay, etc etc). Jumped? I find that number irrelevant. How many non-jump fire assignments did they take? How many did they turn down?
Steve Holder, formerly with NPS could spell out the dollars SMJ’s have used up by injuries, prior to 2010. Workman’s Comp, etc. Way more than any other firefighters.
Those fires on the Rogue Siskiyou that Murry talked about being caught early, used rappelers and jumpers. And hotshots. And District engine crews hiking in. I remember a CA OH Team came to a fire on the south Rogue-Siskiyou (north of Applegate Reservoir), and had an ex-smokejumper as an Ops Chief. He put in an order for 23 SMJ’s to be delivered by air, to his fire. What does a smokejumper order when the fire gets big? More smokejumpers! The order was killed at the region dispatch quickly. It would have depleted the IA capability of the regional smokejumper numbers available (again, familiarity with local and region protocol). I respect Murry’s career as a smokejumper and lookout, but his reference to Line Officers, and his lack of acknowledgement of the Dispatchers and FMO’s that implement the Line Officers’ directives, implies that these folks have no clue. The Line Officers and Dispatchers deal with risk, the transference of risk, and the consequences, very carefully. Local rappelers? Known personnel, known abilities. Ordering smokejumpers? Unknown personnel, unknown abilities.
Well said JK. The values at risk on a remote fire are low, the risk of jumping out of an airplane onto a rocky hill are high. Math doesn’t add up. Rappellers are a better, efficient, effective tool that comes with a bucket. In this age of Risk Management we should be looking at it differently. I know in AK its maybe a different story, but not in the lower 48. Jumping has become a lifestyle choice, not a place to fight a lot of fire.
… might be interesting to compare recent (2 or 3 years) annual costs of the rappeller/jumper programs. Maybe Murry knows where to find that; I do not.
What do I think? Well let me begin by saying that this antiquated delivery system needs to go the way of the dinosaur … extinct, what we need is more rappellers, there in the mid ’90s the rappelling program was really taking off, not real sure where it stands now. Rappelling appears to be much safer, and the platform/delivery system has proven itself to be very reliable.
Way too many injuries associated with jumping, not sure of the stats, but statistically has to be very high, when a jumper experiences an injury it’s usually on the serious side, knees, back, neck, etc.
Not real sure why the jumper program is still around. Only thing I come up with is it must be a legacy thing for someone who jumped and would hate to see it decommissioned … who knows. I am a little biased having spent many, many years on shot crews, that’s the real bang for the buck.
I always supported my folks pursuing the jumper thing, if that is what they wanted then I would do what I could … their choice.
Lastly my opinion is not solely based on my being a hotshot….sure there was always a little we are better, no we are better thing that was always present and I will just leave it at that, this is not the forum for that discussion….I mean them no ill will…..it’s time to implement a more diverse technology. It’s not worth getting all boogered up. If you want to get used more (more fires) stay on a shot crew. Oh boy I am going to take some heat for this one. lol … How dare you rail against the Golden Cow … Just my opinion and it’s been mine for a very long time now. Peace.
100% on keeping them small. For some reason the outfit has gotten into “Planning” and decision making taking multiple hours, or days. Put them out—-get your acres completed with RX burns so that you can better meet resource objectives. Nuking thousands of acres is not the answer. Just because the enviros have shut down logging doesn’t mean that that trees still don’t have some value.
I think Murry is right on.
Today’s, and even yesterday’s, Line Officers are generally clueless as to the talent smokejumpers can bring to ANY remote fire situation. People at a Ranger Station need to let the smokejumpers decide on the risks associated with any and all potential jumps. They have the skill, experience, and knowledge to make those calls.