This weekend we are continuing an occasional feature we started a few months ago. This post can serve as the beginning of an open thread where our readers can talk about issues that we have, or have not, gotten into yet. This is literally an off-topic thread. You have the floor.
The usual rules about commenting apply. And remember, no personal attacks or politics, please.
Let’s enjoy a wide-ranging conversation!
Topic starter
Did anyone see the pilot episode of Fire Country Friday night on CBS? It stars stars SEAL Team actor Max Thieriot playing a convict who works to redeem himself through CAL FIRE’s inmate fire crew program.
In May the Director of CAL FIRE, Joe Tyler, sent an email to the agency’s employees indicating that CAL FIRE was not pleased after a trailer was released. Here is an excerpt from the message:
This television series is a misrepresentation of the professional all-hazards fire department and resource protection agency that CAL FIRE is. The dramatization of inmate firefighters fighting members of CAL FIRE is a poor reflection of the value of our Camps Program and the incredible work and leadership of our fire captains who supervise our handcrews.
While we cannot prevent this television series from airing, I believe it is important for each of you to hear from me directly that the Department was not involved in its creation or support.
Interesting Read- Forest Fire as a Military Weapon
All permanent seasonal positions in R3 to become PFT…….didn’t another region go this direction several years ago? How well did/didn’t that work?
It depends on the location. It seems like it has worked out well on the socal forests (Cleveland, Angeles, LP, San Bernadino) where perm positions can be more competitive and a lot of the GS-4s and 5s live close by. More remote/rural forests that tend to have a more transient work force still benefit from having permanent seasonal positions. A lot of 5s just don’t want to work year round yet, and many of them choose to leave the job or the forest when they hit the point where they have to go 26/0 to promote.
I think giving modules the option for some positions in the org chart would be beneficial. PSE’s have flown in R-5 again the last couple years and seemed to get snatched up pretty quickly. I know some folks who were 6s and took PSE 5s so they could work 18/8.
Does the FS or DOI offer any employee Bilingual Pay? They can. Up to 5% of salary “if certified as fluent in certain foreign languages and are in positions where foreign language proficiency is considered an important skill.”
It is apparently primarily used by the Depts of Defense, State, and the intelligence agencies.
Certainly could be useful in many tasks in many parts of the country. A Prevention, Recreation, or Law Enforcement Officer contacting a non-English speaker is only one possibility. Spanish is the most common language, of course. However, many parts of the country have a large population of refugees or immigrants, and receive foreign visitors with limited English skills. A Trekkie that taught himself Klingon would not be eligible, neither would Finnish, or anyone in a position unlikely to need a foreign language. That still leaves many field employees that could benefit. This would be a means of partially addressing the pay problem now facing the agencies.
I propose the skill pay not be limited to language. Many fire personnel have gained EMT certification on their own even if not required by the position. Most seek higher red card qualifications than the minimums than required by their position. If an Engine Captain is DIVS qualified, and the agency utilizes him in that position on the home unit, should extra pay come with it?
Skills pay need not be limited to fire. If an agency forester or engineer obtains a state license, should they receive a small pay stipend for being more valuable to the agency? Construction and Maintenance staff that have a state Contractors License? A Budget and Finance Officer that is also a CPA? IT staff that have professional certification?
What about education? Is a Fuels Officer with a degree in Forest Ecology more valuable to the agency than a Fuels Officer without a degree? An Engine Captain with a forestry degree? A firefighter with an Associate degree in fire science? A degree in Eastern European Folk Dancing may be a hard sell. Most natural resource or STEM degrees could be justified. If an employee has a skill not required for his position, and the agency utilizes that skill, the employee should be compensated.
How much of a pay boost? That needs to be worked out. One or two steps on the GS scale is not unreasonable and could be implemented using existing pay system and software. What about a person receiving skill pay for position they are in, then promotes to a position where that skill is required. Does he or she lose the skill pay with the promotion? That would lower the pay increase from the promotion. Does skill pay count as base pay for retirement purposes? More details to work out.
Each unit could have a review panel where skills are evaluated as to whether the agency benefits. A person speaking another language in an area where there are no other speakers is not a benefit. A masters degree in Forestry in a BLM desert unit may be less valuable than a degree in Range Ecology.
This requires legislation and close cooperation with OPM. So it would take years to implement.
Dave, I’ve pushed a “responsibility differential” to anyone who will listen. A straight hourly bonus (not a percentage of base pay), along the lines of $3/hr for squad boss, $5/hr for crew boss, etc. This would apply to all the functional areas of any size of incident, not just operations, and not just those managed by IMTs. The most significant bonus should apply to incident commanders, from ICT5 all the way up to ICT1.
This may help with all the TFLD, DIVS, etc. orders that get UTFed, even at PL2. I know of a lot of folks at that level that just don’t want to go out to project fires anymore, since the stress and risk of being stretched so thin, pushed so far beyond the span of control is burning folks out. I went out as a DIVS and a FFT2 this summer, and got paid the same on those very different assignments, which doesn’t feel right.
What’s the word on the ongoing FLSA EXEMPT v NON EXEMPT emails that have been bouncing around in our FS email? Apparently GS 9’s and below have been misclassified as FLSA EXEMPT when they should have been NON-EXEMPT. This error has apparently cost those of us that are misclassified thousands, 10’s of thousands of dollars in miscalculated hazard pay. The NFFE union in R5 picked up on it around June and ran with it.
Anybody know more? Details are vague.
As a supervisor, I have always been exempt – which I remember with the line as being exempt from fair treatment.
Unsure about the fire ranks.
If you look at the Rest of the US GS Pay Tables the loss of true time and a half occurs somewhere around GS 9-3 or 9-4. Below that people get true time and a half, above they don’t unless on a fire. To get the true time and a half on a p code the 9-3/9-4’s and above would have to select a GS exceeds earning limitations option in Paycheck 8 Pay Options. Otherwise they get time and a something.
You’re talking about having to enter “prefix 11” in paycheck. As far as putting in Exceeds earning limitations that only applies if you think you’re check will exceed what a GS15 step 10 gets in base pay, it has nothing to do with FLSA.
Yes, me too but the CFR was rewritten in 2010 and, even if you’re technically a “supervisor”, there is an exclusion for fire and emergency services. There is a BIG dust up going on with ASC and OPM over it because it appears they almost certainly effed up bad! Putting in Prefix 11 screwed us hard.
I would like to applaud R-5 Forest service..This summer most the forests in Region 5 were paying ordered stand-bye for red-flag events (winds, high temps, etc). With their employees being paid 24 hours a day for the duration of the red flag event, with employees camping at their stations for the tour. A number of fires that might have gone big were stopped as IA’s..This is awesome news and I applaud the Forests that are thinking forward on the subject, and being proactive. I have also heard that BLM is not allowing their employees to do this, even if they are covering local USFS units that are working that schedule. Seems like the BLM is dropping the ball and short changing their employees a bit..Any insight in to how one FEd agency can do this and another federal agency can’t?
I heard some BLM’ers had signed CTRs showing 24-hour shifts and then when they got home the BLM management made them go back and falsify their times with lower hours? Is that correct?
I don’t know about that. I do know it’s been common practice in Southern CA for a long time during Wind events…We were just told if our engine is covering a forest that is utilizing the adjusted schedule for a red flag warning that we have to turn down the assignment.
Thanks for the reply. I’ve heard both now. I don’t understand the logic at all. On one hand they are admitting their FF are underpaid and on the other they are actively trying to cut their pay, or their ability to get paid. Can’t make it up
“Fire Country” is horrible. Pretty amazing that a fire that severe can be 60% contained the evening of the first operational cycle. I did almost get a chuckle when the inmate thought the goat was a bear. Where were the goat wranglers? Also, you expect me to believe Wifey-Chief didn’t clock Hubby-CalFire Dude with the wine bottle after he used the word stupid in a planning meeting? Huge, steaming pile is too charitable for this television show. What’s next? “My Mother the Type 3 Engine”?
A lot of people don’t know that this week the USFS and DOI both paused their Position Description work for the transition to the new job series (0456). They stopped because they had been ignoring guidance/direction from OPM for the new series and just simply copy/pasting the old PDs into the new series.
Great News for Wildland Firefighters
Just crossing my fingers that this doesn’t ultimately result in more foot-dragging.
Thanks for keeping us updated on this SMKJ Bro. It seems like there would be more transparency from the working group that is doing the reclassification, atleast an occasional. Since a GS-7 smokejumper apparently has more knowledge on this subject than our regional FMO, can you share some more details on it please..Who’s working on the reclassification, is it line officers or Fire management officers.. Are there going to be any new Grades associated with some of the positions. Also I’ve heard different things with an updated pay scale being attached to these new positions, and that the 20,000$ is going to be baked into the salary, compared to the stipend that it is now. Whatever info you can validate is always appreciated.?
SMKJ bro, we appreciate the info. It seems like there would be more transparency from the working group on this subject. Why are they so secretive on this, how hard is it to send out an update email every once and a while to let us know what is going on with it. Since a Gs-7 smokejumper is better informed on this subject than my regional FMO, do you know the answer to any of these questions. Who is working on the reclassification, is it Line Officers or FMO’s. Are they bringing in SME’s,(hotshot supts for crew PD’s, SMKJ’s for smokejumpers, etc..?) Also I have heard mixed things with a salary adjustment being attached to these new PD’s? I heard a rumor that the $20,000 is going to be baked into the salary in the new positions rather than as a stipend that it is currently, meaning OT and retirement would benefit? Have you heard anything on any of this, we appreciate what you do.
So I’ll just say I’m not in the meetings. And the USFS is being pretty heavy-handed by threatening anyone talking about the PD meetings.
There are no SMEs in these meetings, in fact, what I’ve heard is that it is a room full of Regional Fire Hire Coordinators, and they are often found removing the things that SMEs added. Each region started the process separately, with different SMEs involved at different levels, now the regions’ fire hire coordinators tried to merge that together, and now they are doing final approvals before sending to ASC/HR.
There are no fire personnel in the meetings, and I’ve been told that these people don’t even know if certain positions should be arduous or not, and that takes up a lot of time. I’ve also been told there is a lot of copy/paste going on, so at one point hotshots were rappelling out of helicopters. Whacky stuff. I also know that the grades are being sent with the PDs, which makes me wonder what the point of HR Classifiers is, if they can’t be trusted to grade positions? That seems like a scandal.
I’m not the PD expert, but I am an expert on the pay I guess. There aren’t a lot of options for the $20k supplement going forward, here are a few:
1) It goes away, because it’s temporary.
2) They actually follow OPM guidance, and write PDs that reflect the work, and firefighters get a pay raise because their PDs are graded higher.
3) They keep the scam alive, and copy/paste the PDs into the new series (current plan) and then come up with some special pay rate or other arbitrary pay increase.
4) Same as 3, but they can request a new pay schedule through OPM, similar to GL pay schedule to raise wages.
I’ve spoken with a lot of people, and the reality is that only the USFS/DOI can make up these GS levels for the work we do. Outside of these agencies, you can barely restock a pencil holder if you are a GS7. So folks in DC are just flabbergasted that we have people fighting fire as GS-3s and 4s. The grading criteria is totally arbitrary, and the USFS/DOI can grade firefighters whatever they want, and they have a blank slate to do it, so if they say they want to pay their employees more, then the grades are the best way to do it.
I personally have lost faith in the USFS/DOI to make even the smallest of changes, much less the needed larger changes, such as modernization of Fire Modules/programs. It seems like it is totally beyond their capacity at this point. They can barely get out a fully-funded and mandated pay raise to their employees. Think about that.
Sorry, end rant.
Copy that, thanks for the info, it seems about right. I wonder if we can get a class action lawsuit against the whole process. They were given a mandate by congress, to come up with a professional series, and to not even bring in Subject Matter experts is a flagrant offense. Let’s Lawyer up!
Im close to retirement eligibility and was thinking if they got their act together i might stay a few more years. But out of curiosity i spoke with a private sector company. They actually kind of hounded me after my initial inquiry and they said i would compete well for a six figure job with them. Which beats my current gs-8 salary by miles, making it a pretty easy decision.
What company? I might be in the market.
This is great news! Caught red handed trying to screw us! I know you’ve been deeply involved in the entire deal from it’s inception. Thanks!!!
Bill – Great stuff, as per usual. “Back long, long ago, in a land far, far away..”, the USNPS operated a 3-month long Park Ranger Intake program at Yosemite National Park, nick-named “Kowski Kollege”, conceived and led by a respected and old-time Yellowstone field ranger. Frank had endured WWII as a Coastie on an ice-breaker,in the Gulf of Alaska, if I remember correctly. You can only imagine the skill-set and experience in his wheel-house.
Concept long-dead now, killed – word on the street later had it – by the folks in the rear with the gear back East. All trainees had to have one-year minimum PFT NPS field ranger experience at a unit in the NPS system, with the usual “atta boy” recommends from co-workers/and/or field training officers OTJ. I was still recalling and using the field skills I learned 40+ years later, when I pulled the plug on the NPS as a “White Buffalo” in CY2000.
Frank never let a teaching opportunity go to waste. He beat the bushes for examples of “Beware of Hollywood” moments caught on film, which he would show for our biwkly. trainee/family potlucks ( to forewarn us all when we got nailed as “ranger monitor” for permitted film crews). Grand prize winner was “Dangerous Mission” starring chief-of-clowns actor William Bendix, as chief ranger at Glacier. Recall wildland fire blackened “blowups” (created with 55-gallon drums filled with petroleum mix, that resembled a napalm drop; and the script calling for a fight to the death between the hero (a local boy who wanted to be a park ranger), and a grizzly…Park staff suggested the winner of such event would be the grizzly. Southern California-bred script-writers then suggested substituting a marmot. Staff then diplomatically said that would work….
Believe succeeding efforts by film moguls to initiate a couple TV action series in national parks in more recent history crashed and burned because resident park staffs quietly/firmly said they had to polish their boots, wash their hair, etc., and had not the time to assist in creating mythical Captain America scripts…
Keep this stuff comng!
Sempr Fi,
Hoppy Hopkins
I watched 10 minutes worth and turned back to something more palatable! A terrible renditionand example of how the Fire Service works.
Only in Hollywood would they make a TV series about prison inmate firefighters and ignore the hard work of career firefighters. Yep, inmates as modern day heroes. Hollywood really is a cesspool lacking vision or values.
It is no wonder that CAL-FIRE issued an official announcement denouncing this TV garbage.
CAL-FIRE actually did try to ( legally ) stop the show from airing. Those attempts failed, and they are now
trying ( via another lawsuit ) to get disclaimers added to the episodes which state clearly that CAL-FIRE
had/has nothing to do with this TV show and was never even asked permission to used their name
anywhere within the show.
It’s hard to describe how ‘off the rails’ ( and actually harmful ) this product is… but here’s just one example.
When the inmates arrive at the training camp, the script writers made a point of
acknowledging that there ARE “rules of engagement” for any wildland firefighter.
The training captain hands all the inmates yellow cards with the “10 standard firefighting
orders” printed on one side, and the “18-watchouts” printed on the other side.
The script writers specifically had the captain telling them… “Memorize these rules
and FOLLOW THEM at ALL TIMES. They were designed to save your life”.
Fast forward to the two fire-station based CAL-FIRE regulars passing the
inmate work crew cutting line ( sort of ) and they both head out to “scout” the fire.
Forget the fact that, in this day and age, that was completely unnecessary. All
they saw ( and reported back ) was the fire entering a canyon which is easily
reported by any aerial resource and any basic drone flyover.
They were also NOT following the “rules of engagement”, were NOT paying
attention to good LCES, and they ( of course ) immediately put themselves into a
bad situation and found themselves trapped.
So now, here comes Bodie.
A newbie inmate who just grabs someone else’s chainsaw ( with no indication he
even knew how to use one ), and now QUOTES the “standard order” to his
inmate crew boss about “stay calm and think clearly”, and proceeds to ignore
a direct order from him and blunders off into the woods looking for the
trapped CAL-FIRE FFs.
So now we get the “entrapment” scene. Don’t even know where to start
about how “off the rails” that was.
Burnover is complete. Bodie and the 2 CAL-FIRE FFs emerge totally unscathed.
BAD MESSAGE: Fire shelters work perfectly ALL the time.
Bodie then proceeds to SLUG the other male CAL-FIRE FF, and when the
FF asks Bodie why he even bothered to come save them, the script writers
chose to put these words into Bodie’s mouth…
“I came to save you so you would NOT become a HERO”.
So the message the script writers chose to send was that even if you
knowingly violate the “rules of engagement” and put yourself into a bad situation,
all you have to do is DIE and you would automatically still become a HERO.
The episode ends with no indication there would be any investigation whatsoever
of either the entrapment/burnover or the fact that a newbie inmate violated his
crew boss’s direct orders while working on a fireline.
Excuse me while I go vomit.
Even though I think Max is a very good actor, it’s pretty bad when my 13 yr old grandson says , “this show sucks! “
Ppl keep trying to make, idk, American Sniper when they should be trying to make Generation Kill.
Hi Bill, This has nothing to do with any subject today but some of history. A friend sent me a link to a story that was on Facebook, evidently from the Outdoor mag. It is about 4 of the first ladies to be on hotshot crews. I thought it was interesting as the ladies were on hotshot crews in the mid 70’s. Two were on Zig Zag, one of who went on to be the crew sup, the others on Lassen and Baker River. I would send you the link but have no way to do that. If you would be interested in the story, I would forward my friends message with the link to you. I need an address to do so, June
https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/exploration-survival/first-women-hotshots-wildland-firefighters/?utm_campaign&utm_content&utm_medium=organic-social&utm_source=Outside%20Magazine-facebook&fbclid=IwAR1g9Lz3ULDe5GnncosLhNqgThTvglV-bUhCD7XOwvonzTAe6cGELBLWAcw