Part 2 of the US Forest Service’s video about hotshot crews was released today — below.
(Part 1 was released yesterday.)
Introduction to a hotshot crew — part 2
Second of a two-part series
15 thoughts on “Introduction to a hotshot crew — part 2”
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Thanks for that. I always looked forward to the end of the season, and then looked forward to the next one. I’ve also known many who we’ve lost doing this. We have to grieve and move on, knowing everyone deals with it diffently.
During my entire career, and 40+ years in fire, I have never known anyone or have never spoken to anyone who had severe enough issues to take there own life. So I don’t understand how this could happen, and why it seems so common. It doesn’t seem that the complexities of the job, or the emotional aspect of it would be enough to make this happen. Are there pre-existing mental health conditions that contribute, or is it that some people don’t handle stress as well as most? I may have missed some articles that explain it, but I’m still ignorant, I guess as to why this happens. There are always alternatives, and I don’t understand how this job, in and of itself, can make people take their own lives. Hotshot crews aren’t alone in this, firefighting is stressful to all ff, but it’s up to the resource and supervisor to mitigate the stress, and take it all into perspective. Unless there are lives at stake (rare), then it’s just brush (or property, which can be replaced), remember THAT. You can only do so much (but be productive), and take care of yourselves first.
Jeff, first of all count yourself very lucky that you have not had to deal with this issue. Suicide is a very emotional and complex subject. Working in FIRE is very stressful. I would say, survivor’s guilt is probably one of the biggest issues. I would also say that thoughts of suicide start to creep in when you realize that someone else died, because no one listened, maybe you were overridden by your change of command. Another reason is the feeling of not having control. (That’s why Dispatch is so hard, you can hear what’s going on and you can coordinate, tell people what to do, but you’re not there. Then you have to plan the funeral. Not fun! So, there’s a feeling of responsibility.) There are also financial reasons, personal reasons, relationship issues, sexual assaults/rapes, and dealing with other people getting hurt or dying. So, many people have called me and without going into details, I’d say the majority of the cases start when the FIRE season slows down. It’s like when your in a FIRE it’s go, go, go, but then it slows down and you have time to think about what happened. The FS has after incident meetings, but I don’t know if they work. I’ve been to several of those and they are very emotional. Again, I’m glad that you haven’t had to deal with this issue. Good luck! Peace, Joy, and Happiness!
Hey Ben, I get it, I really do, things have not changed that much, a great many times I had to make decisions way outside the norm, with that said I had to be ready to justify my decisions to first my crew and then my Boss, we all have one. Again I am not testing you or even questioning your gig, I don’t know you but I get the sense that you are stand-up.
Let’s just be careful what we normalize, it took a long time and many fatalities for us to get our work-rest in order or should I say much improved, let us always honor our history…..I would enjoy having that talk…..u betcha.
Things are about to get better…….
And I do know your time was limited…..
Bill if you are willing you can give Ben my e-mail…..that’s a start. As I do not really do any kind of social media aside from this site….shoot I still use a flip phone….lol……..Peace……
I appreciate the open and honest dialog, well done. And there is no doubt that the Eldorado Supt takes excellent care of his folks, I would not suggest otherwise, I am only speaking as an old shot Supt…my experience/perspective
I do hope the 24-32 hours shifts are the exception and not the rule, we have 2:1 work ratio for a reason. I realize that there will be a need to exceed 2;1, when you do it needs to be mitigated, save the community but when it done be sure to give our folks adequate down time to recover. 5 hours after a 24 hour+ shift don’t get it.
If there are not enough resources, then so be it…..At some point enough is enough…..
Back in the day…..lol….mid 80’s the Supt had the discretion as to how much down time we got, not uncommon to pull a 30= hour shift and get 5 hours….miserable…..
Old Fire Blue Ribbon Report…..During the initial stages of the Old and Grand Brix fire on the BDF we tried to stay to the 2:1, but when the Old fire entered the outskirts of San Berdo and started to burn the community, we no longer adhered to the 2:1, how could you when your neighbors are losing everything. So yes there is a time when you must do what needs doing…period
Lastly it would have been good to hear from some of the crew members…..Just saying…..
Old DRHS thanks for the comment and perspective. It’s hard to share all my perspective in a short video about the realities we face nowadays. I would love the opportunity to talk with you off line to paint the picture better and learn from your experiences as well. In short, every fire we are assigned to nowadays has some Urban interface component, and with lack of resources we are more often then not, put in these high values at risk areas. Like the story you shared about breaking 2:1 when the fire was coming into a community, this is where we find ourselves more and more. We’re normalizing the taking on of more risk by making it easier to break 2:1 because of these situations. It ultimately falls on my shoulders when we call it a day and how much rest we get, but when a fire moves six miles in a few hours and the folks who live in the communities threatened just barely got the evacuation notice, the threat to life and property become very real. This message is to paint a picture that the way we use to do business and rules we are still trying to adhere to, need to change. It’s a message of us needing to evolve to meet the current needs of the fire environment and the expectations of the public, and more importantly, the well-being of our folks.
I very much value you experience and perspective but the current environment we are in has a new set of probabilities that we haven’t seen before and while your past has tremendous lessons in it for all future generations, we must try and understand that s*** changes and and we must change with it, and I do believe you do understand this.
Again, you are my brother and I respect you very much. Hit me up anytime to bull s***, I’m easy to look up. Have a great day my friend.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, Ben. You said, “…we must change with it…”
What changes do you suggest?
I believe that the reform’s and change we are looking for are captured pretty well in Tim’s Act. But to expand more on this, I believe we have have three main issues:
1) Fuels management issue.
2) Fire issue
3) Retention issue
Separate fire and fuels management and appropriately fund and staff both areas.
If you pay them, they will come, and stay (we can argue that money doesn’t fix problems, but when most people say they left because of money, well, I think it would help).
Not new thoughts to this forum and very simply put so please don’t think this is something that We haven’t give better thought to, it’s been stated so much here that I think we can understand what’s needed.
After this is done then we pick apart and rework things to meet the needs. I’m going to leave it here now because I’m getting into an area where folks start to get worked up and attach emotion to their opinions. I appreciate the conversation and you can contact me anytime for further discussion. Much respect
Comments:
1) Same as the last video…Many white men, one white woman. and no African-American men or women. It seems that the Forest Service has a diversity problem.
2) This is not climate change. This is mismanagement of the Forest Service.
3) Suicide…30%? Forest Service knows this is a problem. Don’t count on management to solve this problem. If you are having suicidal thoughts please get help, but be aware that EAP reports back to management. Seriously, I want you to get help, but I don’t want you to lose your job. I have heard 100s of stories, so please be aware that the Forest Service is not a “safe space”.
SR….yes 30%. This means that for every 10 people in the general population, there are 13 wildland firefighters who die from suicide. Is this a statistic that you don’t believe? If so, I recommend you look into the research and get in touch with the people on the fireline.
I suggest you double check your math.
Bill, thank you for bringing this up. And you are correct, the rate according to Nelda St. Clair is 30 TIMES higher. My math was based off what was said in the video (30%).
I didn’t intend to get into mathematic semantics, but I think it is worth mentioning the difference when this video is viewed by non-firefighters trying to wrap their heads around the magnitude of this issue. The fact of the matter is that suicide is a very real issue in our job. I appreciate your continued dialogue on this topic Bill.
I believe it! I was on the line. I worked for the state (TX), NPS, FS, Air Force, and Army for over 27 years. Wow! 30%! That’s horrible. I’m not sure how to say this, but it seems to me that there should be an investigation…it seems to me that the FS should be held accountable for these deaths…(hostile work environment?) I remember the FS doing counseling after a accidental death, do they still do that? Do they do it for suicides? I’ve always wondered, why they treat a fire death, an accident, differently than a suicide? Why don’t they have a memorial for suicide victims? Maybe if the FS had to see all the names they would do something about it.
Thank you for clarifying your stance on this subject SR. Your earlier question mark had me confused. This is a very emotional issue for many of us, and it is hard to convey thoughts eloquently on a comments section. This topic is all too real when we see this issue first hand affect our brothers and sisters.
It needs to be talked about regularly and I commend Ben for openly talking about it on camera many times. My apologies to you Ben for bringing up the 30%/30X difference. Again, this is just technical semantics but worth noting. It’s the dialogue that matters most so thank you for representing. Much love.
I totally understand. Yes, it’s a very emotional issue and I’m so sorry for the confusion. It’s an important topic, but I want people to be aware that it’s not safe to talk about it at work. I was wrongfully fired (for speaking out) and I’d hate to see others fired, just because the FS doesn’t know how to deal with suicides.