National Public Radio produced a four-minute feature on All Things Considered in which they interviewed wildland firefighters about the effects of the forthcoming pay raise. They talked with firefighters Dave Carman and Patrick Benson, as well as retired US Forest Service Fire Chief Riva Duncan who is now with Grassroots Wildland Firefighters.
The transcript is here, and the audio is below.
I love it when the old folks come on here and say how rough they had it ?, Old Folks….Wow……Have some respect…….
If you want to complain about a 50% pay raise for GS3s and a $20k/year pay raise for GS6 and up, then look no further than an agency (and OPM) kicking the can for decades that allowed the top levels to be paid well, $37-63/hour for GS12-15 while allowing the most vulnerable to languish as low-paid temps without much incentive to stay in the workforce (lack of upward mobility, healthcare, retirement, low pay, uncompetitive pay in market competition).
Smkjmpbro, I respectfully disagree with much of what you have to say, no one lets anyone languish as you say, for those that want to make a career out of the DOI/FS they certainly can do just that, you want to see temp jobs treated like PFT jobs when they are not, where else besides Cal Fire can you find Benefits for temp FF. Most entry level jobs in the US do not provide benefits….you are expected t work your way up.
You talk about all of these issues and you expect money to fix most of them….come on really…..Yes you folks deserve a pay raise…..no doubt….Heck yea…..
Most of our temps to not stay on…….they have chosen another path….So just maybe some of the so called attrition is natural….Most folks never intended to stay…..
You come on very strong with your opinions, I get it, I guess I do as well….it gets a little hard to read after a while…..the comments concerning our militia from you and others…Not Cool……it’s time to chill….and that is just what this old person is going to do……take a break from this nonsense…….Peace Out…………………….
Obviously I am not talking about 11’s. I am talking about tech’s……I am not at all suggesting no raise….Really!
Maybe they want to be in trails and not fire……so let’s punish them…….WOW! Who is going to take care of the resource now that your officially FF’s…..lol…….Oh this is going to be good….
I am just saying there are others that need to be considered…..
12 rolls for one engine or divided between ####, I doubt that one agency fed engine alone saw 12 rolls….and I am sure that is not what you are saying…..I did this for 38 yrs, I think I have an understanding of how things work.
Time will tell if this is a good thing……I really hope it works out……
Maybe militia folks should get fire jobs now, or even start an advocacy group that contacts legislators and explains why they are vital to the nation and need a raise due to lack of staffing/vacancies, high divorce rates, lack of career advancement, depression, substance abuse, and ongoing mental health crises?
Of course they need a raise, so when all the rec/timber techs move into fire they’ll have to raise wages in those departments as vacancies mount, if the need for those positions is clear.
You mean the GS 11 militia doing status check in? No raise because of the militia is non sense. I’ve heard this before. They’re militia and are generally paid more than our firefighters to start with. This is our day job and yes we roll all year!! If you don’t think so then your out of touch. My engines did 12 rolls this year. And if a trail crew member wants to join a fire crew, we’ll take them. The times have changed. Stop trying to hold our people back. It’s non-sense.
As so often is the case, law makers throw a great many things into these spending bills without thinking things thru, this is another example of this…..Big Pay Raise how nice for you all, but has anyone contemplated the fact that you have now created another class of Fed employee, the militia which just happens to be extremely instrumental in dealing with our nations fires every year, rec techs, trail crews, maintenance and on and on, these folks come together to build our Type 2 IA crews, so now a GS-4 on a trail crew working side by side by a real FF is going to receive significantly less pay to do the same job……this looks like a case of gimmy mine and forget everyone else, maybe I am all wrong here and there is a provision to take care of these folks. When I was a FMO I could not have done anything without these folks stepping up to suppress fire and assist with our RX program, I would imagine when these folks hear about this they are going to have a very strong opinion.
For me one our greatest attributes is that we were all in this together, not now, you have your special classification, I have always been ok with how things have been, everyone knows that we are FF’s, our PD’s reflect this, our retirement is classified as FF retirement…..
What a stinking mess, just because gimmy mine, don’t worry we will work out the messy details later, this effort should have been all inclusive, folks on trail crews (example) have some of the very same issues as everyone else.
And please stop with the narrative that all FED FF’s go non stop thru out the fire season, not true…..some resources do…sure….mainly IHC’s, not FED engines, not exclusive use rotor, not IMT’s….sure they are very busy but they are not non stop, there is a local and national rotation for these resources……they do catch a break…..IHC’s do not…..ever…….
I hope I am wrong and we have thought about others concerning these pay raises……..Aughhhhhhhhh!
Exactly. Hopefully it pans out but look at the 10% bonus. Didn’t even come close to 10%. Started at 5% and went down from there.
With no explanation…
As for the comment on the status of applications with the FS. If anyone can’t get a straight answer out of ASC, please contact me. You should first contact ASC and start an inquiry. Attempt to be as specific as possible what you are asking, otherwise you will get processed as “applicant wants to know the status of their application” and you will be processed along with the rest of the people wondering how to connect to the internet and find USAjobs. Example: “I submitted an application, but received a notice saying I was not referred to the hiring official, but believe I am fully qualified.” Send an email to jonathan.miller@usda.gov. I am a union official, so I can only help bargaining unit employees. If you don’t know if that applies to you include your position and current duty location. We have been successful getting employees meaningful answers, added back to certs they were wrongfully removed from, and when past the point of the job being filled, getting employees wrongfully excluded from consideration priority consideration for future positions. We are also doing our best to move the needle toward making things better in the future. Your stories are helpful to that. Good luck you all, keep trying and it will come together.
Hoby, two words for you BS!!! The union has done nothing to help us. That’s one of the problems. A union that is useless!!! Why do you think the Grassroots was created? ….because the union wasn’t doing anything!
SR that’s not true or helpful. Hoby works his ass off to help us Forestry Technicians. Let’s keep it positive and find ways to work together and get the ball rolling forward.
We’ve just got a $9.62/hour base wage increase and have more legislation/reforms knocking at the door. Let’s look to push Tim’s Act and get better understanding of how agencies and OPM are going to implement our big gains. We are on a generational roll here
$9.62 base wage increase?? That’s official or are you assuming everyone is getting a 20k bump? Until something official is out, that’s a huge assumption.
Well legislators intended and gave enough funds for it to be across the board, but sure, I guess it could get screwed up somewhere…
Smokejumper Bro, 1) It is true the union is not there to help the employees. They are the eyes and ears of the FS. (They are like the scorpion on the fox’s back. Go ahead trust ’em, you will be stung!!!) 2) Let’s take a look at Hoby’s comment. He’s saying e-mail him when the FS drops you from the red list. (That’s if you ever find out!) Hoby is admitting that the FS does this; therefore, Hoby knows that this happens and instead of fixing the problem, Hoby asked people to e-mail him. Why? To document the complainers or to document what we already know is happening. That Jessie Standridge is dropping minorities, because he is a sexist and a racist. COME ON!!! They’ve known this for over 4 years. Why doesn’t the union do anything about it? Because they are useless!!! 3) Some people got a wage increase. 4) I was trying to be nice about the Grassroots, saying that apparently there’s a need for the Grassroots. If the unions were doing their job, why did y’all organize? You know what? I didn’t want to say this, but y’all are worse than the union. All y’all have done is take credit for the hard work that people have been doing this for years. Whatever!!! Smokejumper Bro, you’re gonna have to choose a side. I get it! You are riding the fence as long as you can, but you’re gonna have to figure out if you want to help the Forest Service or the people who work there!!! Good luck, man, ’cause you’re gonna need it!!!
Bill,
I just wanted to say the comments on the controversial articles have great entertainment value. 🙂
Ok then compare contract wages to AD CNG.
All of the folks that like this job and enjoy themselves are just a little quieter than all of the others being vocal about pay disparity and all of the issues that have been recently brought to the public eye. Think about it, why would I get vocal about a good thing, other than to say “thanks”?
But, I will certainly take a pay raise to ease my families mind about whether I have to go on fire assignment for a baller Christmas, or to be able to travel to see our extended family during the holidays. I will certainly take that SME Shrink who better understands my melt downs and the effects it had on those surrounding me.
All of the old timers know that the problems being addressed are real, and have been an issue for a long time. We intelligent youngsters also know that some of our peers are just bitching to bitch and probably shouldn’t be in this job! There are truths to all of these comments. How about we just enjoy our Holidays, realize that progress is being made for our profession, and we need to make it clear that Wildland fire fighting is a tough job, mentally and physically, over the short and long term, and it isn’t cupcakes and candles!
I think the loudest voices are the ones who spoke with their feet and walked away from the agency…
Lots of comments here about how people “feel” or “why all the whiners are getting a pay raise”, but I’d just say that this isn’t really about feelings. It’s about a responsibility to manage our federal lands so people aren’t living in fear of wildfires and our kids can grow up and take a walk in the woods because there are still some trees left to walk in.
So how exactly can we properly manage our lands? Thinning? Burning? Suppressing bad fires? Managing good fires? Yes of course, all of those things.
But it comes down to manpower. We have to get bodies in the forests to do all this work, and currently we don’t have people that want to do this work. There is a societal shift in our economy, where people can work remotely form home and make a good living with minimal skills/training. So we have to compete with that. Many workplaces have decided that to compete in our society they are offering great benefits, so we have to compete with that. Inflation is here and home/commodity prices are skyrocketing, so we have to compete with that. Adjacent industries such as structure fire, blue collar work, private firefighting, etc… wages are skyrocketing, so we have to compete with that.
A lot of this maybe could have been avoided if agency leadership made some concessions like improving the Employee Assistance Program, working to help with career mentoring, changing the work schedules so people don’t find themselves working 30+ days straight, and offering career ladder positions. They chose to not do anything, forcing congress to step up. Congress said that if the agencies refuse to do anything to maintain a workforce to actually manage the land, then they will offer more money to make up for all the other hardships that this job comes with, and hopefully this new money will fill all the cracks in the system.
It’s not a matter of feelings or caring, it’s simply a matter of labor economics: supply and demand. We need more people, how do we get them?
So instead of throwing rocks, just think about how you would bolster the workforce, when there are hundreds (thousands) of vacant positions across the west with few, if any, applicants.
It’s easy to complain: saying that we shouldn’t talk about California (where 50% of the workforce resides), or that GS3,4,5 positions are entry level (I finally got a GS-5, luckily my 6th year in fire with a degree on a hotshot crew). The reality is that there is one GS8, one GS7, one GS6 on a typical IA fire crew of 20 people… so if everyone else is stuck at the 3,4,5 level is it really entry level. People have 20 years of fire experience and are GS6, I see it all the time. Once you see your coworkers attempting or succeeding with suicide, getting divorced, depressed and leaving, it will change you.
Good explanation…now about that little application process and the ABQ “Service Center?” That process to even consider a GS3-5 gig…is nearly more “Arduous” than the PACK Test and getting answers about where ones appl is on USAJOBs
Lets maybe start with the ones that want to stay, ie happy with their pay, but don’t want to get the vaccine! That would be a start. Retain the capital that you already have with the least amount cost. Then you can talk about how money will solve everything else. You crack me up SMJ Bro! Everyone is talking about filling holes and getting more people to come to work in Fed Fire, but at the same time no one has addressed the elephant in the room about those that will not be around if the mandate refuses a bunch of RA’s. Seems a little hypocritical if you ask me? Oh wait…. no one has, or cares I guess.
Well that comes from President Biden, so what’s the point of bringing it up here? You think unvaccinated people will be allowed to serve under President Biden with a pandemic still ongoing? This is way over the head of any advocacy or at the agency level. And it’s another thing where the workforce is split. Lots of folks want the unvaccinated gone, and the unvaccinated want to get rid of mandates. It’s a no win situation to even engage there. Sorry, I won’t bite.
You’ve got the same attitude I hope many folks have, as I did when I was with the FS (retired after 34 yrs). Certainly more needs to be done with keeping folks around, it’s too bad that recruitment and retention isn’t more successful with the culture we have today. Maybe more $ and benefits will help. I hope so.
Yep….Us old timers have it all wrong……Gs-3-5 positions are basically entry level jobs and for the most part, outside of CA-WA they are decent paying jobs for kids coming out of high school. Stop using Ca as a yard stick, Ca is out of whack with the rest of the country, I am a Ca born and raised, and parts of I do miss but I knew I could not stay. A decent standard of living is important when raising a family.
I had a saying that I must have picked from an old timer, the USFS owes you nothing but a paycheck and in return you owe the USFS everything, there is some truth to this….just think about it a little.
My crew was very important to me in a great many ways, most if not all were there because they wanted to be, we encouraged folks to speak up and be a part of things, my job was to take care of them and to suggest otherwise is offensive. Yes I told them if they did not like it here Burger King is always hiring. (Mostly Joking)
Our FF’s in so cal got paid a lot more that other FF’s…..I do not recall exactly how much….maybe 25% more.
The DOI/USFS they are great places to work and maybe great places to have a career…….Most Americans will only have their SS to live on….here you you have a decent pension….if you work hard……
The very things folks are concerned about today are the very same things we were concerned about 10-20-30 yrs ago….I would like to think our past efforts have helped in the cause.
By saying we shouldn’t be getting pay raises, you do have it wrong. Us “forestry technicians” have all the responsibility but get paid the lowest. That’s a fact. The USFS doesn’t have a problem paying other agencies and contractors a high wage, just don’t pay its own folks. Working hard is not the issue. Our green crews are hands down the best crews out there. You won’t get quality employees if the pay is s***. And in today’s terms, the pay is s***. I started 23 years ago and the pay was good. We have not kept up with times. Drop the ego and open your eyes.
Hey Bill. How about a little investigative research on what we pay for contractors vs full time federal firefighters? That will blow your hair back!
A contract crew boss makes more than a type 1 federal ic per hour. Do you think something might be broken???
Comparing straight hourly wages is somewhat misleading. Micro level, lots of contractors don’t work unless they’re on fires; there’s no guaranteed base yearly income. Macro level, contractors generally have significantly fewer (if any) benefits and much less expected lifetime job stability.
I thought the NPR story was well done. My advice to temps/seasonals, don’t let your management string you along. When I worked for the Grand Canyon NP, there were a lot of temps. Year after year, management would say we’ll hire you next year, but they never did…and why would they? They were getting cheap labor…slave labor. Anything worth doing is worth paying for!!! The NPS is not the only one who does this; the FS management has openly said (and on multiple occasions), “If you don’t like it, leave!” So, if you don’t like volunteering or getting paid $13-$15 an hour, LEAVE…Dominoes is paying $20-$25 and hour, plus tips. As for the 3 bills, I wouldn’t count them. They are not sustainable. I wish they were…it’s a stop gap and to be honest it’s really a cluster f*. NP, FS, and BLM needs leadership to step up and make the necessary long-term changes. Congress is not going to make the necessary changes. They are NOT going to save you. I agree with the NPR report, salaries (ALL SALARIES) have not kept up with inflation, but if you don’t like what’s going on LEAVE. Maybe the FS will finally get the message when they lose another 38% of their workforce.
I think the point is that more than enough people have moved on. The Feds aren’t as attractive to work for anymore. Why would I leave the State to work for the Feds at this point?
A very incomplete story from NPR. I have to wonder if they wrote the piece before going out in the field. In this case, we all want a basic pay raise for our Federal wildland firefighters and appreciate any help in that direction. To sustain that raise and to deal with the manifold problems the agencies have created themselves will call for a vigilant national press and a desire to consider the whole picture. First year seasonals are not generally folks contemplating career decisions. And, the agencies might explain to the press why they eliminated so many good living situations for seasonal firefighters – and left them out on the street to fend for themselves. Throwing money at it well not solve every problem. Thanks to Bill Gabbert for setting an example of honest reporting and keeping the doors of communication open.
john culbertson
I love it when the old folks come on here and say how rough they had it ?
2000 median home price in CA was $241,000
2000 GS5 wage was $10.93
So 22,050 hours to pay for a home
2021 median home price in CA is $800,000
2021 GS5 wage is $16.90
So 47,377 hours to pay for a home
And if you get a 30-year loan the gap increases further.
This is pretty standard across the west, and not only in California.
In California and parts of Washington the feds actually pay less than minimum wage. Typically, legislators and citizens are appalled to hear firefighters are paid so poorly.
People also have a more difficult time moving up through the ranks today than in previous generations of wildland firefighters.
I could go on and on, but the failures are obvious and that’s why legislators had to intervene to protect the workforce, and ensure we are able to continue the mission.
If you want to complain about a 50% pay raise for GS3s and a $20k/year pay raise for GS6 and up, then look no further than an agency (and OPM) kicking the can for decades that allowed the top levels to be paid well, $37-63/hour for GS12-15 while allowing the most vulnerable to languish as low-paid temps without much incentive to stay in the workforce (lack of upward mobility, healthcare, retirement, low pay, uncompetitive pay in market competition).
Yep, seems to be a common theme here. Get on the comments page and start out by telling everyone you were a hotshot supt, AFMO, etc, etc, etc and that you made ends meet, so why can’t all these current firefighters.
It’s pretty easy to overlook the wage disparity from 10-20+ years ago to now without looking at inflation or costs of living increases. That’s awesome that you made it to retirement and could afford to live and retire where you work. Good for you…but this just isn’t the reality for a majority of federal firefighters now.
Federal pay is absolute garbage. A 13/13’s base salary is in the $16k-$18k range. That’s ridiculous. AFMO’s and FMO’s are not paid nearly enough for the responsibility in fire suppression and prescribed fire. Might have been decent money 38 years ago, but hasn’t even come close to keeping up with inflation. Also fires and fire seasons have changed in that time frame and are much more demanding than when you started. Not even close. Time to hang it up with that outlook.
After one season, “…exhausting, mentally and physically.” Go do something else, then. Where are all the folks that enjoy this job, make ends meet, and look forward to next season? If you’re mentally and physically exhausted from this line of work, then move on. Don’t keep working until you feel like you need to do something drastic. Don’t get me wrong, there needs to be a pay raise, but all we hear about now days is how the FS, BLM, etc. is taking advantage of Forestry Technicians (don’t get me started), poor me. Let’s hear from the other side for a change.
Well said Jeff (and OldDRHS above). 23 of 37 years as FS fire employee were Hotshots, even up to retirement. Best job I ever had but isn’t for everyone. More money is always good.
Agree Jeff, 21 years of fed fire (hotshot, lawn dart, WFM, AFMO), 6 years as a temp before I got a permanent job, wife is able to stay home with multiple kids, live in a “mountain town” where cost of living is way up. Somehow we have made it. Blessed I figure, compared to what’s being hammered into the media about how crappy fed firefighting is, which I agree working for the feds is completely frustrating, but you do have some benefits that are way better than most jobs. I guess I just don’t understand, I wasn’t one to take unemployment for the winter as a temp, always found a job so I would not dip into my hard earned OT from the summer and go onto the next fire season. There are lot of us out there that are not complainer’s, but when I was looking for work out of high school, seemed like a good job with good wages, but maybe I am skewed because I was not entitled. Go try “day work” on a ranch and tell me how unfair wages are and how unsafe it is to be “punchin” cows, oh wait you actually have to have some job skills, roping, riding, fencing…They teach you everything in fire with no skill coming in, just have to pass a pack test.
This comment..smh. When did you start working? How much did your house cost? In the mountain town I’m adjacent to you can’t buy anything for under $400K-how are you going to afford that with GS-3 or 4 starting wages? Throw in some student loans on top of that.
Stay at home mom? Lol, I went back to work when my baby was 6 weeks old (single parent to boot).
I just don’t know about these back-in-my-day posts. They just seem so counterproductive.
I just want to add that I do support the mental health care along with overall heath care of our FF workforce, I am not a total jerk, I obviously know how difficult a profession this is both mentally and physically…..I get it…..I lived it for 38 yrs…..Peace…..
Really, only funded for 5 yrs, this is going to be a monumental train wreck, how is this not permanent, this will not be sustainable, at some point the US treasury will stop printing money and this glass house is done for. 50% pay raise is ridiculous, entry level jobs are just that, entry level, you work your way up…..I believe that pay raises are needed….I really do, just not 50%…….again this is not sustainable.
I have always said working for the big green machine is a choice, if you do not like it find something else, money will not fix attitudes…..period…..
” if you do not like it find something else, ”
I do think this is legitimately good advice on a personal level, but if the agency’s effectiveness is compromised because half of their guys didn’t like it and found something else, they’re either going to have to offer better total compensation (pay, benefits, lifestyle, …) or change their mission.
It’s actually only funded for 2-2.5 years. FS+BLM claimed to have 15k firefighters, so Congress said 15k*$20k=$300M/year for 2 years… It may stretch longer due to people not all being PFT and not all getting the full $20k
“I have always said working for the big green machine is a choice, if you do not like it find something else”
Really? Is this the attitude you instilled in your firefighters as the Supt of Del Rosa?
How about, “if you don’t like it, voice your opinion and make it better. stand up for your fellow crew members and make positive change”
Just a thought….
Bunk, I totally agree, but women tried that and we were fired.
Sligtly longer version here:
https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/economy/2021-11-23/infrastructure-law-gives-burned-out-wildland-firefighters-a-boost