The ability to accomplish a lot when given very little is, necessarily, the hallmark of federal firefighting.
Firefighter on the Cold Fire in Wind Cave National Park. Photo by Bill Gabbert.
There have been articles published in recent months describing the working conditions, miserable pay, and dangers to the mental and physical heath of federal wildland firefighters. Some of the attention is due to the efforts of the Grassroots Wildland Firefighters who have been reaching out to politicians and the media.
The fact that hundreds of federal firefighter positions are vacant across the nation is a product of the inability to compete in the job market with public and private organizations that actually pay their employees a living wage without requiring them to be away from home for up to 120 days each year. It is a complex subject that few understand and is difficult to summarize quickly.
The best article I have read that describes the plight of federal firefighters was published this week in Grist by Zora Thomas. I implore you to read it and pass it along to someone who NEEDS to understand. It also has excellent photos taken by Ms. Thomas and other firefighters.
Below is an excerpt — how the article ends.
…The day after the blowout on the Bear Fire, one of our leads was hit by the top of a tree. He was on his own, down in a steep drainage, orchestrating a handful of helicopters to cool down a leading edge of the fire and give the rest of us time to prepare a road to burn off. He didn’t see the dead top of the tree, or hear it fall. He’s lucky to be alive.
The piece that hit him was large enough to be fatal, but decomposed enough to break on impact. It smashed him down the steep hill he was working on, filling pockets on his pack with rot and woodchips. He’s been in wildland fire for most of his adult life and has had plenty of close calls, but this one was enough to make him call his mom, just to say hi.
On our way back to camp that evening, after he hiked out of the ravine and rejoined the crew, he mentioned the incident so casually that it took me a moment to register what he was saying. Tree strikes are killers, the stuff of nightmares, and he spoke with the blasé manner of someone describing how he’d been cut off in traffic.
As he told the story, we laughed and joked, glad he was OK. But the exchange left me sobered and bewildered. After a decade of experience, the accumulation of innumerable specialized skills, and the consistent risk of his life and his health, he still only merits the title of “forestry technician,” and an hourly pay rate comparable to a senior barista at my local Starbucks. There’s a damaging disconnect between the lionized figure of the firefighter and the reality of the men and women who fight more fire than anyone.
The sub-headline is a quote from Ms. Thomas’ article.
Senator Dianne Feinstein was adamant that the pay structure for federal wildland firefighters is not adequate in today’s job market
Senate hearing, Appropriations Subcommittee on Interior, Environment, and Related Agencies, May 26, 2021. Still image from Committee video.
The pay of federal wildland firefighters and hazardous fuels treatments were two of the issues discussed Wednesday at a hearing before the Senate Appropriations Subcommittee on Interior, Environment, and Related Agencies. The only witness was Vicki Christiansen, Chief of the U.S. Forest Service. The hearing was titled, Rethinking Resiliency: Budgeting for the Future of Forest Management.
The fact that it was scheduled at all seemed unusual, since a similar hearing before the same committee was held just five weeks ago on April 15 with Chief Christiansen testifying. The video of the earlier hearing is still available at the link above, but the hearing is not listed in the Committee’s list of “recent hearings.”
Senator Dianne Feinstein said her main concern is the “salary situation.” She said the California Department of Forestry and Fire Suppression pays their firefighters $70,000 and the “U.S. Forest Service pays $38,000.” She had a strong point but her information about the FS salary is misleading. Most FS firefighters start as a seasonal employee at the GS-3 level. If they worked year round, which most of them do not, they would earn $28,078 a year at $13.45 an hour. After working for five to ten years they might be able to obtain a permanent full time appointment. If they reached the GS-6 level, they could earn $39,311 a year as a trained, experienced, highly skilled mid-level firefighter — an employee highly valued by other organizations anxious to hire them at double the salary.
Senator Dianne Feinstein, at Senate Appropriations Subcommittee hearing, May 26, 2021. Still image from Committee video.
Senator Feinstein said the differential in pay between CAL FIRE and the FS “…is the problem. And the loss in fire is just tremendous. I think that we have to move some way in a bill to make that change.”
“State, local, and private entities can range from $70,000 to $88,000 a year,” Chief Christiansen replied. “And their benefits are better. We have folks that are absolutely committed to the mission of the Forest Service, but at that wage, that gap in the wage, they’re going on to work for other entities. So we really appreciate working with you to bridge this gap and to discuss. We need more of a year-round workforce as well.”
“Well thank you Chief,” said Senator Feinstein. “Thank you very much for that because I’ve been around a long time, was a mayor for nine years of [San Francisco]. And I’ve never seen a pay differential this stark as the difference between federal firefighter pay and state firefighter pay. So the reason I’m here, is to say we need to move and do something about it. Let me ask another question. Do you have the mobility, Chief, to make the necessary moves to prevent this inequity from showing in actual firefighting?”
US Forest Service Chief Vicki Christiansen, at Senate Appropriations Subcommittee hearing, May 26, 2021. Still image from Committee video.
“Thank you,” Said the Chief. “We certainly can bring a strong voice to this problem, but we have to work across the Federal government with the Office of Personnel Management and of course, other agencies with federal wildland firefighters, the Department of the Interior being the largest. [Agriculture] Secretary Vilsack has made a commitment to bring leadership to this. And we really look forward to working with you here in Congress to address this issue.”
Senator Feinstein said she hoped the committee would work with her and others and “try to solve it.”
The Chief said that during the pandemic the FS continued hazardous fuels work, “…but we know it’s not enough. We need a paradigm shift under the President’s jobs plan. President Biden is calling on Congress to significantly invest in protection from extreme wildfire. After confronting record wildfires last year, we expect another long and arduous fire year in ’21. We are prepared, but we remain deeply concerned about the welfare and the pay of our thousands of firefighters. We’re grateful for your help in finding solutions that address pay equity, fatigue, and the mental wellbeing of our firefighters. Just this Monday, a Forest Service firefighter was seriously injured in New Mexico. He is a smoke jumper from Montana, and this demonstrates the seriousness of this business. Our thoughts and prayers are with him and his family. As I know yours are as well. You know, our infrastructure needs are pressing as are the economic needs of Americans. When we improve the infrastructure of the National Forests by upgrading roads, trails, and recreation sites. It spurs job growth and boosts economies. Thanks to the Great American Outdoor Act, we expect to create an additional 4,400 jobs and contribute an estimated $420 million to the GDP annually.
Senator Merkley asked about a report required by law to have been submitted by March 27 to provide Congress an estimate of the federal investment required to treat and restore federal and non-federal acres classified as high risk for wildfire. Chief Christiansen blamed the delay on the Department of the Interior where it is “in its final clearance”. Senator Merkley emphasized that the subcommittee needs the data “to advance far more funds for forest treatments” and asked the Chief to be sure it is submitted by the end of the month.
The Senator mentioned there is a significant backlog of fuel reduction projects in Oregon and New Mexico. He asked the Chief, “What does it take to get these projects that have already cleared the environmental controls, underway. Is it a single limitation? Is it just money or is it anything else?”
After an extended answer from the Chief, Senator Merkley interrupted to say, “I’m going to have you shorten it a little bit there. I think your answer was essentially, ‘Yes, it’s funds’ “.
The agency issues statement about compensation, recruitment, and retention for wildland firefighters
Firefighters on the Legion Fire in South Dakota, Dec. 12, 2017. Photo by Bill Gabbert.
I was working on an article for Wildfire Today about the difficulties the federal land management agencies are having trying to recruit and retain firefighters while their employment packages pale in comparison to similar jobs in some state or municipal organizations. I sought out a spokesperson for the U.S. Forest Service (FS) in California, Jonathan Groveman who works out of their regional office, asking for specific numbers of firefighter positions in the state that can’t be filled.
About 20 hours after we last spoke, Mr. Groveman sent an email with a rather extraordinary official statement. There were no detailed numbers like I requested, but what was sent instead was six paragraphs that indicated that the FS, or at least Mr. Groveman, recognizes some of the issues that are beginning to seriously cripple the ability of the five federal land management agencies to protect the homeland from wildfires.
When Forest Service Chief Vicki Christiansen testified before a House Appropriations Subcommittee on April 17 she squandered two clear opportunities to accept or ask for more funding in two very important inadequately budgeted areas, fuels treatment and aerial firefighting. It was not clear if the Chief selected that strategy because her chain of command in the Department of Agriculture and the White House demanded that she remain agnostic about adequate funding for those areas, or if she took it upon herself to remain meek, adopting a don’t-make-any-waves posture. If it was the latter, the Chief needs to find another job.
At that point it looked hopeless to expect the Forest Service to be proactive about requesting Congress to provide badly needed funding for protecting our homeland from fires.
In order to solve a problem, first it must be identified — which is tough to do with one’s head buried in the sand.
Mr. Groveman’s statement identified some of the issues that are seriously degrading the effectiveness of federal wildland firefighting. Assuming it represents the stance of the agencies and the White House, the next step is for Senators and Congressmen to work with the agencies to make sure they have the tools needed to do their jobs. Here are some of the highlights — quotes from the document. Following those, is the complete statement.
“Federal wages for firefighters have not kept pace with wages offered by state, local and private entities in some areas of the United States. We have seen key highly trained personnel leave the Forest Service and we have also experienced some inability to recruit new employees into the agency, which we understand is due to wage disparities with the states.
“We are committed to ensuring that Federal firefighters are properly compensated and recognized for the work they do
“This is not about minimum wage but about a competitive wage.
“In order for us to remain competitive we need to create a structure for establishing a wage that creates greater parity. This would enable us to maintain the necessary firefighting workforce necessary to meet wildland fire response expectations.”
The full statement is below:
Maintaining our ability to hire and retain firefighters as we see the complexity of the firefighting environment grow exponentially, has been further complicated by our inability to offer competitive wages. Federal wages for firefighters have not kept pace with wages offered by state, local and private entities in some areas of the United States. We have seen key highly trained personnel leave the Forest Service and we have also experienced some inability to recruit new employees into the agency, which we understand is due to wage disparities with the states.
We are committed to ensuring that Federal firefighters are properly compensated and recognized for the work they do and the administration is focused on equity in all forms. These problems are not unique to the Forest Service and also apply to firefighters within the Department of the Interior.
This is not about minimum wage but about a competitive wage. Particularly in states like California we are seeing that federal wages for firefighters is about half of what they would get for similar jobs in state and private entities. In order for us to remain competitive we need to create a structure for establishing a wage that creates greater parity. This would enable us to maintain the necessary firefighting workforce necessary to meet wildland fire response expectations.
We are working with OPM and OMB to evaluate options to modernize the firefighting workforce compensation structure, including job series, pay grade levels, and other changes.
In light of these challenges the Forest Service still maintains a robust and highly capable wildland fire workforce and will be able to meet the demands of what is expected to be another challenging fire year. We work with our federal, state, tribal, local and private partners to be sure we can access all available resources to respond to wildfires as needed.
The Forest Service is focused on creating a more modern firefighting workforce where we have specialized year round capability to respond to the wildfires conditions of not only today but into the future. This includes greater utilization of technology to enhance firefighter capability, effectiveness and safety.
Firefighters being briefed on the Pine Gulch Fire in Colorado, August 21, 2020. InciWeb.
A senior-level wildfire management person in the U.S. Forest Service (FS) told Wildfire Today that there are hundreds of vacant permanent firefighting positions in California. The agency’s difficulties in recruiting and hiring seasonal and permanent firefighting personnel has resulted in multiple hotshot crews not qualifying to respond to a fire with 18 personnel, the minimum required by interagency standards.
More than a dozen FS fire engines in the state are completely unstaffed, or instead of seven days a week coverage they have cut back to only five. (Check with your local fire department and ask which days of the week they staff their fire engines.) Thirty modules of FS hand crews, dozers, or water tenders in California have been shut down due to a shortage of employees, according to our source.
(Read more: Forest Service issues statement saying in part, “Federal wages for firefighters have not kept pace with wages offered by state, local and private entities in some areas of the United States.”)
The personnel issues are caused by two primary factors, difficulty in hiring, and experienced firefighters leaving the organization for better pay and working conditions.
Seasonal federal firefighters in California are generally hired in January and start working in mid-May or mid-June. The centralized hiring process now being used has been heavily criticized as inefficient.
A look at the system for advertising vacant permanent firefighting positions in the federal agencies, USA JOBS, shows a large number of unfilled FS positions. Here is a sample from this week:
Some of the FS fire jobs at the website are open for a few months or a year, and others are basically continually open with no end dates. Hiring of permanent fire personnel can go on throughout the year as additional positions become vacant.
The entry level wildfire job with the federal agencies is usually a GS-3 working under the title “Forestry Technician,” which receives $13.32 per hour, almost $2 less than the minimum wage sought by some politicians recently. In California a state agency that competes with the federal government for hiring firefighters pays about double that rate. A recent survey found that the first and second most cited reason for leaving federal firefighting organizations is to move to a job with the California Department of Forestry and Fire Suppression or local municipal fire departments.
Difficulties staffing Incident Management Teams
Skilled fire personnel leaving the federal land management agencies have made it difficult to find employees qualified and willing to serve on Incident Management Teams (IMT) that are mobilized to suppress large wildfires and manage other incidents.
From a report released May 13, 2021 by the Incident Workforce Development Group:
Today, critical challenges in rostering and managing IMTs is leading to a decrease in the number of teams available for an increasing number of complex incidents.
In the past five years there have been multiple occasions where all available IMTs have been assigned to large fires. Local units have had to face the consequences of managing a complex incident without the services of an IMT.
Firefighters in the Department of the Interior
A spokesperson for the Department of the Interior told Wildfire Today that they do not anticipate having a large number of vacant firefighting positions. (Wildfire Today was unable to confirm this claim):
The Department of the Interior is on track to have available a total of approximately 5,000 firefighters, a similar number to what was available last season.
The initial bureau hiring targets are:
Bureau of Indian Affairs – 600
Bureau of Land Management – 3,450
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service – 530
National Park Service – 930
How many firefighters does the FS have?
The Forest Service, which is in the Department of Agriculture, has been saying for years that they have 10,000 fire personnel. Wildfire Today filed a Freedom of Information Act Request with the the agency on December 10, 2019 to obtain the actual number of firefighters. We are still waiting to receive factual information.
Widespread news coverage
Three major news organizations have published articles this week about the recruitment and retention of federal wildland firefighters. Below are excerpts:
Despite the increased threat, the Forest Service does not expect to meet its goal of hiring 5,200 federal firefighters in California this year.”It will be below that number,” said Bob Baird, director of fire and aviation management for the Forest Service Pacific Southwest Region. “With hiring challenges and attrition, it could be a lower percentage than that, but we won’t know until we finish our hiring process.”
“California is ground zero for attrition,” said Riva Duncan, a former Forest Service officer who is the executive secretary of Grassroots Wildland Firefighters, which advocates for federal fire personnel. “We’re losing people at an accelerated rate because there are so many other opportunities.”
The [FS] projected a shortfall of 313 firefighters in Region 5 this year, at least 8% fewer firefighters than it aimed to employ. The shortfall is frustrating for many in California’s state government, which relies on the federal service to help put out wildfires, but has little control over staffing levels.
Thom Porter, the chief of California’s state fire agency, CAL FIRE, said he’s had regular conversations with California-based Forest Service officials about staffing this year. He said he’s most worried that when the agency’s teams are moved to fight fires in other states, the Forest Service won’t have enough people, or enough experienced people, to backfill those roles in California.
“If they’re unable to hire, if they’re unable to keep staff on when we’re having our most critical periods, it is a public safety risk,” Porter said of the Forest Service. “Because we so much rely on each other that—there isn’t a single agency in California that has all of the resources it needs for a major incident of any type. It’s all hands on deck.”
Jon Groveman, a spokesman for the Forest Service in California, said the agency attempts to staff 46 hotshot crews in the state annually, but it hasn‘t been able to fill all of those positions for several years, leaving it with between 35 and 40 crews. The agency expects “a similar number of crews to be staffed this fire year,” he wrote in an email, adding that “some crews for various reasons (mainly due to staffing challenges) will not be able to attain Hotshot standards.”
Hotshot crews that have lost that designation include the Horseshoe Meadow Hotshots in the Sequoia National Forest and the Modoc Hotshots in the Modoc National Forest, both of which the agency considers “unstaffed.”
A Forest Service job posting earlier this spring for a full-time, experienced firefighter in the Bridger-Teton National Forest in Jackson, Wyoming, warned applicants that real estate costs were high. It suggested a few affordable options, including Habitat for Humanity, the nonprofit home builder that helps low-income people get into new homes.
Firefighters in Cold Springs Canyon on the Myrtle Fire in South Dakota, July 22, 2012. Photo by Bill Gabbert
Senators Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) and Kyrsten Sinema (D-Ariz.) announced today that the Government Accountability Office has agreed to assess the hiring and retention of federal firefighters at the five agencies responsible for wildland fire management.
The senators requested this review in an April 27 letter. In addition to Senators Feinstein and Sinema, the request to GAO was joined by Senators Steve Daines (R-Mont.), Alex Padilla (D-Calif.), Mike Crapo (R-Idaho), Patty Murray (D-Wash.), Jim Risch (R-Idaho), Michael Bennet (D-Colo.) and Jeff Merkley (D-Ore.).
“I applaud the GAO for agreeing to review the critical matter of wildland firefighter resources. Climate change is making fires in the West more deadly and destructive, and we need to do more to ensure we have the resources available to battle these fires,” Senator Feinstein said. “The federal government is responsible for managing millions of acres of lands in the Western United States, and ensuring we have enough firefighters and that they are compensated fairly will be an important part of planning for future wildfire seasons.”
In conducting its review, the senators urged GAO to:
Identify barriers to recruitment and retention of federal firefighters at the wildland fire agencies.
Review the current job series and pay scale of Forest Service and Interior Department wildland firefighters to ensure their pay is commensurate with state firefighting agencies and reflects their training requirements and the hazardous conditions they must endure.
In the last year Senators and Representatives have shown interest in wildland firefighters:
January, 2021: Sought to raise the max-out limit on overtime pay for senior level federal employees.
Riva Duncan testifies remotely during Congressional hearing, April 29, 2021. Still image from live video.
In the oversight hearing today before the House of Representatives Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests, and Public Lands a former U.S. Forest Service firefighter spoke truth to power.
Riva Duncan, who recently retired from the Fire Staff Officer position on the Umpqua National Forest in Oregon, testified remotely about job classification, pay disparity, employee health and wellbeing, recruitment, size of the workforce, and fire seasons transforming into fire years.
I have watched many Congressional hearings about wildland fire and the agencies that manage them, and this is the first time I can remember that a firefighter who had worked their way up from an entry level position and had not been tainted by serving time in the Washington Office, testified about firefighting conditions. In 2016 Kelly Martin, then Yosemite National Park’s Chief of Fire and Aviation Management, testified about sexual harassment, but she was not asked questions about pay, hiring, and retention.
Ms. Duncan, now the Executive Secretary of the Grassroots Wildland Firefighters, submitted 13-pages of testimony, but the last portion of her five-minute opening oral remarks had a memorable impact on the politicians. Toward the end she choked up a little — you can probably guess which section provoked that response.
“I am not here to disparage the US Forest Service,” she said, bringing her formal remarks to a close. “These issues are larger than any one agency and will take complex, and expensive, solutions. It truly was my honor to serve the US Forest Service and the American people. I loved working in fire, but I love the people I worked with even more. I have grown weary of losing amazing friends and colleagues, and I have grown impatient with inaction. The US is burning, wildland firefighters are struggling, and some are even dying. The time for reform is now. Thank you.”
Not only were her words powerful, but her delivery got the attention of the politicians — a category of humans not generally known for their compassion and empathy. During the rest of the hearing many of the Representatives used a little of their allotted time to tell her how much they appreciated her participation.
“I want to thank you for your testimony and your service, said Rep. Joe Neguse (CO), Chair of the Subcommittee. “It’s incredibly powerful and certainly resonated with me and every member of our committee on both sides of the aisle.”
In her written testimony Ms. Duncan said, “Our inability to hire and retain wildland firefighters has become readily apparent with record setting fire management vacancy rates through the federal service. Hiring managers are finding themselves unable to fill empty positions, and lacking compensation is a primary contributing factor.”
The hearing was titled, Wildfire in a Warming World: Opportunities to Improve Community Collaboration, Climate Resilience, and Workforce Capacity.
Chairperson Neguse began the hearing by proposing a new “Climate Corps to address immediate restoration needs and create rural jobs… a pipeline for careers in land management and conservation.”
“We need more well paid, permanent opportunities to grow the federal land management workforce,” the Chairperson continued. “As the budget has shifted toward wildfire suppression, there has been a corresponding reduction in non-fire personnel costing us land managers, biologists, other scientists with the expertise for planning for fire to improve the resiliency of the landscape in the first place… While the fire funding fix ended the practice of fire borrowing it did virtually nothing to improve the health care, pay, or general well being of those on the front line of these climate-driven disasters — our Federal wildland firefighters.”
Rashida Tlaib (MI) asked about pay and transitioning to a full time workforce.
Ms. Duncan replied in part, “We can’t fix anything around the fire workforce without adequate pay, a decent living wage.” Later she talked about how funding has been cut across the Forest Service, not just in fire.
Rep. Tlaib said, “I truly believe it is unacceptable that we are asking Federal wildland firefighters to protect the vast territories for just pennies on the dollar and I’m hoping that we can take action in this committee to raise pay and benefits to support our firefighters as the professionals that they are.”
One Representative has a wildland fire background
“I know wildland firefighting well, said Rep. Teresa Fernandez (NM). “I was the first young woman hired to assist the State of New Mexico Forest Service during fire season. All five of my brothers fought forest fires. As noted earlier there is no such thing as fire season anymore.”
When Rep. Fernandez asked what Congress can do to help, Ms. Duncan did not pull any punches and laid the responsibility where it rightly lies– with the people she was testifying to and their colleagues:
“We really need legislators like you all and the administration to take the lead to pass real meaningful reform to make these agencies work with the Office of Personnel Management and Office of Management and Budget to work very directly and quickly to move forward with a new [job] series and then tie additional pay to that,” Ms Ducan said. “I think most people would be shocked to know an entry level wildland firefighter makes less than $14 an hour. That’s embarrassing and it’s amazing what these people, who risk their lives, make for a living. It’s a travesty.”
Why would anyone want to be a Federal wildland firefighter?
Rep. Katie Porter (CA) asked Ms. Duncan: “Why would anyone want to be a Federal firefighter and get paid $13.45, below what we have been pressing for as the minimum wage for jobs that don’t require the kind of training and risk to your person? Why would anyone become a federal firefighter instead of a state firefighter where the pay is nearly double?”
“That’s the million-dollar question and we’re struggling to hire people now into those entry level positions”, Ms. Duncan replied. “We’re struggling to staff our engines and our crews because of that. For some of them it’s a summer job, to put themselves through college. They’ve grown up in a community where there is a Forest Service or Bureau of Land Management office, so it’s an easy jump for them to get into that. But they get bit by the fire bug, they love the career, and then find themselves making it difficult to meet financial goals.”
“Let’s get the classification going”
Rep. Raúl M. Grijalva, chair of the full Natural Resources Committee said to Ms. Duncan, “We [have been] working on legislation in a couple of Congresses now on reclassifying our Forestry Technicians into Wildland Firefighters… Let’s get some more folks on board and get it through this time. Let’s get the classification going and then we can start remedying the pay schedule as well, too. So I think, one step at a time around here.”
After talking about efficiencies in the federal agencies, he told Ms. Duncan, “Please contact our office with ideas. We’re just trying to find ways to move more effectively within the law or change the law where needed. Because we want to be streamlined in what needs to be done.
Other topics
Of course it was not all about firefighters. Courtney Schultz, an Associate Professor for Forest and Natural Resource Policy told the committee, “In addition to supporting agency research, Congress should consider restoring full funding for the Joint Fire Science Program, the biggest and most effective program that addresses agencies’ priorities for fire research.”
Later Ms. Schultz said capacity is the greatest barrier to making progress in fuel management.
Several of the Representatives mentioned reducing or eliminating regulations to make conducting projects easier.
Should local government or industry manage National Forests?
Rep. Tom Tiffany (WI) said we have too much preservation: “I think we have a fundamental question here between management and preservation and the west has suffered under preservation for about the last three decades.”
He asked one of the other panelists, California rancher Dave Daley, about local management of National Forests — “Would local government or industry be more successful in managing these wildfire risks and just managing the resources generally?”
Mr. Daley talked about the Good Neighbor Authority which allows the Forest Service to enter into agreements with state agencies to do forest management work on National Forests, saying it has been used in California.
Rep. Tom McClintock (CA) used all of his allotted time to talk about the benefits of logging. He did not ask any questions.
Rep. Blake Moore (UT) emphasized the importance of post-fire management.
The video of the hearing below should be cued up to begin about 10 seconds before Ms. Duncan’s opening remarks. If it does not start there, you can skip to 36:00.
